Purpose:
To summarize the initial filled w/chatter analysis thread and bring into focus discussion of higher viscosity transaxle oil options. We’ll get “You’re over thinking this / Go Ride” comments, but I felt Snow’s sharing of increased viscosity being advisable (vis a vis Weddle) is worthy of consideration.
A teaser: Amsoil win’s nothing here, Redline has been displaced as the default AGL replacement.
The focus here he will be Turbo tranny’s although you can apply this to the 1000’s tranny’s as well. In the old post I referenced “chain stretch” attributed to high viscosity. I’ve looked into this more and now consider that an old wives tale.
This is NOT a summary. The quick and dirty version is here:
www.rzrforums.net
Background:
Something like 95% of folks will not have a transmission problem, but those that do often experience expensive case damage, ruined vacations and etc. Meanwhile, this discussion has never been about “cheaper”. The criteria remains: Higher quality, accessible, with a solid cost return to value. As always, regular maintenance remains rule #1.
Getting Started:
Our transmissions are akin to a transaxle: The fluid must handle both a final drive (high pressure on the ring gear and calling for EP additives) and the thinner needs, and AW requirements, of the transmission. How thin? We’ll get to that, a bit more color first.
Others have tried to address why these sometimes fail. I don’t have the full genesis of who did what, but the top two beliefs had been “Cheap Bearings”, and “Not Enough Oil to The Bearings”, both generally aimed at the idler shaft bearings. This has not been debunked, but Snwmbl (Snow) has taken this farther than those before him and concluded that a contributor, if not the underlying cause, is mfg. bearing clearance tolerance is too loose and side case bearings lack (who knows how frequently) adequate preload. Here is his thread on this:
17 XP4 1K rebuild
(I’d start at post 340, but the entire thread is a great read.)
There isn’t any question in my mind that these things are true:
However, Snow reports Weddle suggests running quite a bit thicker viscosity oil. Danger Will Robinson, Danger! Not for everybody, but for a lot of you that’s an idea fraught with risk. Probably Snow included. Now we can dig in.
Digging In W/Data:
Look at Table #3 somewhere below and look at the 40c viscosity of what Polaris engineers recommend, what Amsoil recommends for their warranty coverage and what RedLine recommends. Pretty darn thin right? Let’s look deeper:
Let’s use Table #1 to translate between gear oil (SAE J306), and engine crankcase oil (J300)
Table #1
![676478]( "676478")
Things to know as you look over table #1:
So What Is AGL?
Two things first:
So AGL appears to be transaxle capable lubricant slighly thicker than DDF, substantially thinner than Angle Drive Fluid, GL-3 or 4 capable, and fully synthetic. It's probably Group III base oil. I believe the reason we use AGL in our machines is that:
Hot?
“Hot”, 100c, viscosity is how thick (better to think “how not thin”) the oil is at 212F (Usually over the temperature for our simple transaxle’s run, but it’s what we’ve got). Cold is 40c, or 104f. THINK ABOUT THAT! We’re looking at “cold temperature” that is akin to a really hot summer day!! Keep this very much in mind!! We’ll see what oil really does when it’s even sort of cool in a moment.
You’ll also note when you look at Table #2 below that once we pass 40C the viscosity curve really flattens so if our transaxles run at 80C instead of 100C it doesn’t really matter. FWIW, Snow shared Weddle stated tranny's run hard can exceed 200f (93c). Pretty much what we'd expect.
It’s much tougher to do in a gearcase, but this spread between cold and hot viscosity is called “Viscosity Index” (VI). An engine oil can do this with something called a “Viscosity Improver” but gearcases literally tear those apart (shear), so that’s not practical (usually). You either accept a low VI or you engineer a better oil via excellent base stock - exclusively the domain of Group IV synthetics. Not something labeled “full synthetic” by a marketing weenie, but something that is, from a chemists perspective, a true synthetic. Think Amsoil, Motul, Red Line, and Royal Purple. There’s probably a few I’ve missed too.
Interim Conclusions:
To this point we know that a large VI “flattens” the viscosity / temperature curve, so one characteristic we seek is a high VI, and we know to be wary of what “cold” temperature means. Let’s look deeper at “cold” as I’d promised:
Table #2
![676479]( "676479")
Notice that as oil’s warm, even to 40C, the variance in their viscosity becomes minor, amounting to a few centistokes . Those can matter, but look at what happens as oil gets even slightly cool! At 32F/0C there are THOUSANDS of Centistokes of difference. Now take a look at the blue line. That’s a generic Synchromesh fluid, something found on transaxles around the nation. Then notice 75W-80 is pretty close. 80W-90? Now you know why Poo won’t use “Angle Drive Fluid” in a transmission - the bearings would be lubricant compromised in cool weather.
Note also AGL is thinner than anything on this table!
I hope the point is clear: Change viscosity with great care, realizing that you will gain tiny steps in hot viscosity at great cost to cold viscosity. We can address this with some skill but it’s not as simple as “go run a 75W-140”.
What To Think?
Remember, I’m OK at this for a layman, but these are opinions, All said and done this is on you!
The Data
Table #3a - Baselines & "The Winners"
![676527]( "676527")
![676498]( "676498")
Table #3b - Reference & "The Dogs"
![676528]( "676528")
Blackstone AGL VOA:
The Bottom Line:
Remember, I’m OK at this for a layman but these are opinions, All said and done this is on you!
Recommendations:
Considerations:
Decisions decisions. I’ll bet a lot of you guys don’t need to be supporting super cold either. I won’t recommend a “general replacement” that won’t support it, but the push for more viscosity when hot has shown a number of interesting choices.
Closing Thoughts:
This is really splitting hairs. Still, once we started getting industry guidance to increase our oil viscosity I elected to look at this again. I’m not personally willing to jump as high as Weddle suggests, and can’t really understand what logic made them leap the rails so hard. Still, I have shown you how to make large jumps in viscosity and still limit loss of cold operation. To whatever degree of viscosity you decide is your cup of tea you’ve got the best in class I found. Use our own use-case, and weigh how far off the ranch you want to get chasing that 5%.
I think I’ve also demonstrated the challenge Poo has in delivering a one size fits all oil. I’ve gone on record many times as saying I think they’ve under specified AGL as we need it, but once you look at the cold weather stuff deeply enough you can appreciate their challenge in delivering an international oil standard. Mind you I’ve shown far better oil selections exist so I’m not giving Poo a lot of credit.
Finally we now have a standard recommendation with literally double the “hot” viscosity of Poo’s factory AGL, we’ve held to tolerable 40C numbers, and improved the D97 pour point. Obviously all through selecting a high VI Group IV oil. As was the last standard, we still gain GL-5 too. I'm really pretty impressed with the 300 Gear old (not the NS version). Shame I missed it last time.
Hope this helps!
-d
Other thread on oils for consideration:
www.rzrforums.net
www.rzrforums.net
www.rzrforums.net
To summarize the initial filled w/chatter analysis thread and bring into focus discussion of higher viscosity transaxle oil options. We’ll get “You’re over thinking this / Go Ride” comments, but I felt Snow’s sharing of increased viscosity being advisable (vis a vis Weddle) is worthy of consideration.
A teaser: Amsoil win’s nothing here, Redline has been displaced as the default AGL replacement.
The focus here he will be Turbo tranny’s although you can apply this to the 1000’s tranny’s as well. In the old post I referenced “chain stretch” attributed to high viscosity. I’ve looked into this more and now consider that an old wives tale.
This is NOT a summary. The quick and dirty version is here:
RZR Maintenance -Oils and Filters - The Quick and Dirty...
This post updated 7/14/21 Disclaimer: This summary is written for those that ask me “ what should I use, and I don’t want to read why”, both online and IRL. I’m hopeful this helps us all. It is, however, only one man’s opinions. Break-In Steps: Immediately: Replace the stock air filter...
www.rzrforums.net
Background:
Something like 95% of folks will not have a transmission problem, but those that do often experience expensive case damage, ruined vacations and etc. Meanwhile, this discussion has never been about “cheaper”. The criteria remains: Higher quality, accessible, with a solid cost return to value. As always, regular maintenance remains rule #1.
Getting Started:
Our transmissions are akin to a transaxle: The fluid must handle both a final drive (high pressure on the ring gear and calling for EP additives) and the thinner needs, and AW requirements, of the transmission. How thin? We’ll get to that, a bit more color first.
Others have tried to address why these sometimes fail. I don’t have the full genesis of who did what, but the top two beliefs had been “Cheap Bearings”, and “Not Enough Oil to The Bearings”, both generally aimed at the idler shaft bearings. This has not been debunked, but Snwmbl (Snow) has taken this farther than those before him and concluded that a contributor, if not the underlying cause, is mfg. bearing clearance tolerance is too loose and side case bearings lack (who knows how frequently) adequate preload. Here is his thread on this:
17 XP4 1K rebuild
(I’d start at post 340, but the entire thread is a great read.)
There isn’t any question in my mind that these things are true:
- Most won’t get bit by this.
- If you are worried take these steps, in this order, as deeply as you see fit.
- Run the best oil you can.
- Go easy on RPM, speed, and load until things warm up and oil has had a chance to splash/climb around in the tranny.
- Replace the tranny bearing before it fails (Snow has them listed in his thread)
- While you’re in there think hard about spending the time/money to have the bearings pre-loaded as Snow has shown us (with all due credit to Weddle Industries)
However, Snow reports Weddle suggests running quite a bit thicker viscosity oil. Danger Will Robinson, Danger! Not for everybody, but for a lot of you that’s an idea fraught with risk. Probably Snow included. Now we can dig in.
Digging In W/Data:
Look at Table #3 somewhere below and look at the 40c viscosity of what Polaris engineers recommend, what Amsoil recommends for their warranty coverage and what RedLine recommends. Pretty darn thin right? Let’s look deeper:
Let’s use Table #1 to translate between gear oil (SAE J306), and engine crankcase oil (J300)
Table #1
Things to know as you look over table #1:
- Polaris AGL has been tested. It’s alleged to be roughly 0W-5W engine /20-30 (crankcase) oil, or what in gear oil would be roughly 70W-75.
- 5W engine oil is roughly analogous to GL-3 diff fluid and was used in low power applications in the past. Long superseded, but it has precedent.
- AGL is a marketed as a “full synthetic”. Given the poor numbers we see it’s almost certainly a Group III synthetic with a low VI.
- Polaris markets, and does not specify for our use, what is called “Angled Gear Lube” (This is not AGL. It’s named by a marketing weenie that should be shot). Said oil is widely accepted to be an 80W-90 equivalent, or something akin to 30W-50 engine oil (with a different, one hopes, additives package).
- Clearly we now what Poo engineers see as “out of bounds” too, right?
- Amsoil and Redline both specify 75W’s, and both on the thin side. Think 10W-15W, and both in turn have higher “hot” viscosities.
So What Is AGL?
Two things first:
- While AGL is servicing a "transmission", and a manual transmission is the closest automotive equivalent, we don't have synchro's to contend with or commensurate "yellow metals".
- DDF can be (has been) argued to be a transaxle worthy fluid itself. We know DDF to be thinner than 5W, and at or just below GL-4 (likely just below).
So AGL appears to be transaxle capable lubricant slighly thicker than DDF, substantially thinner than Angle Drive Fluid, GL-3 or 4 capable, and fully synthetic. It's probably Group III base oil. I believe the reason we use AGL in our machines is that:
- Poo engineers didn't have a business politics case for yet another lubricant in their inventory.
- AGL it's the closest match they had in inventory.
Hot?
“Hot”, 100c, viscosity is how thick (better to think “how not thin”) the oil is at 212F (Usually over the temperature for our simple transaxle’s run, but it’s what we’ve got). Cold is 40c, or 104f. THINK ABOUT THAT! We’re looking at “cold temperature” that is akin to a really hot summer day!! Keep this very much in mind!! We’ll see what oil really does when it’s even sort of cool in a moment.
You’ll also note when you look at Table #2 below that once we pass 40C the viscosity curve really flattens so if our transaxles run at 80C instead of 100C it doesn’t really matter. FWIW, Snow shared Weddle stated tranny's run hard can exceed 200f (93c). Pretty much what we'd expect.
It’s much tougher to do in a gearcase, but this spread between cold and hot viscosity is called “Viscosity Index” (VI). An engine oil can do this with something called a “Viscosity Improver” but gearcases literally tear those apart (shear), so that’s not practical (usually). You either accept a low VI or you engineer a better oil via excellent base stock - exclusively the domain of Group IV synthetics. Not something labeled “full synthetic” by a marketing weenie, but something that is, from a chemists perspective, a true synthetic. Think Amsoil, Motul, Red Line, and Royal Purple. There’s probably a few I’ve missed too.
Interim Conclusions:
To this point we know that a large VI “flattens” the viscosity / temperature curve, so one characteristic we seek is a high VI, and we know to be wary of what “cold” temperature means. Let’s look deeper at “cold” as I’d promised:
Table #2
Notice that as oil’s warm, even to 40C, the variance in their viscosity becomes minor, amounting to a few centistokes . Those can matter, but look at what happens as oil gets even slightly cool! At 32F/0C there are THOUSANDS of Centistokes of difference. Now take a look at the blue line. That’s a generic Synchromesh fluid, something found on transaxles around the nation. Then notice 75W-80 is pretty close. 80W-90? Now you know why Poo won’t use “Angle Drive Fluid” in a transmission - the bearings would be lubricant compromised in cool weather.
Note also AGL is thinner than anything on this table!
I hope the point is clear: Change viscosity with great care, realizing that you will gain tiny steps in hot viscosity at great cost to cold viscosity. We can address this with some skill but it’s not as simple as “go run a 75W-140”.
What To Think?
Remember, I’m OK at this for a layman, but these are opinions, All said and done this is on you!
- If I was running in the desert, deep south, or otherwise never turning an input shaft below say 68F { (20c* 1.8) + 32 } you could run a high VI 75W-140 as Weddle suggests (They are in California, so for them maybe reasonable).
- The rest need to be more careful. We can run a 75W gear oil, but we need to stay on the lower centistoke (cold vis) side of that. Despite all we can do with VI improvers, talking about 140 weigh oils takes you well beyond Poo engineering and into unreasonably thick cool performance.
- What else should you look for?
- Snow has relayed that side pressure on the idler bearing is a problem. The “pressure” additive in oils is called “EP”, and is rated by GL ratings. You may want to prefer a GL-5.
The Data
Table #3a - Baselines & "The Winners"
Table #3b - Reference & "The Dogs"
Blackstone AGL VOA:
Polaris AGL analysis
So I had a virgin oil analysis done on the Polaris AGL transmission/chaincase lubricant just to see what magical things are in it. Figured the powersports people may be interested. Enjoy.
bobistheoilguy.com
The Bottom Line:
Remember, I’m OK at this for a layman but these are opinions, All said and done this is on you!
- If I was running in the desert, deep south, or otherwise never turning an input shaft below say 68F { (20c* 1.8) + 32 } you could, maybe should, run a high VI 75W-140 as Weddle suggests (They are in California, so for them that’s maybe reasonable).
- The rest of us need to be more careful. We can run a 75W gear oil, but we need to stay on the lower centistoke (cold vis) side of that. Despite all we can do with VI improvers, talking about 140 weigh oils takes you well beyond Poo engineering and into unreasonably thick cool performance.
Recommendations:
- General Purpose AGL Replacement / All-Temperature
- Motul Gear 300 - 105777
- Rarely to never below 32F (machine starting temperature)
- Motul 75W-90 Type 2 (Not sure this is enough better to compromise cold performance)
- Never below 50f (ish): (is this perfect for you southern and west coast guys?)
- Redline 75W-110, SKU 57804
- Never below 70f: (Desert, Arizona, etc I suppose)
- Redline 75W-140
Considerations:
- As you step up in temperature you’re getting more viscosity, but remember you add cold viscosity much faster.
- Use your own use-case to decide. An example:
- I’ve been out below freezing once when I wasn’t pulling out of a heated garage, and then it was probably 25f. Do I need to be using “General AGL/All temperature”? Nope. Yet I can’t run the southern/west coast guys, “Never Below 50F” oil either, so I’m a little trapped. Looking at Table #3 we see Motul 75W-90 Type 2. Too thick for “All temperature”, but for my use? It might be fine. But I’m not gaining much either! A few cSt at 100c? The new All Purpose Standard is twice as thick when hot as Poo’s AGL, so how much improvement do I need, and what is the compromise I’m willing to make?
- You may prefer completely different choices. You can evaluate your own oil favorites! Here's what I do:
- Cold performance:
- Obviously we're looking for a 40c cSt commensurate with your minimum engine starting temperature preferences.
- D97 Pour Point tells us how the oil behaves much colder. Some oils to much better than others and it won't always show in the VI. There are even things like Pour Point Depressers (PPD) that lower these numbers.
- I assume a low D97 implies a flatter curve than we'd otherwise expect in the colder regions. PPD presence doesn't mean their won't be spikes, perhaps at 0C or something, but we've only got so much data.
- You want a high 100C too. You're going to know just by looking at the VI.
- Don't forget you're looking for transaxle/Manual transmission rated fluids. A rear diff only fluid may not be adequate.
- I prefer GL-5.
- Cold performance:
Decisions decisions. I’ll bet a lot of you guys don’t need to be supporting super cold either. I won’t recommend a “general replacement” that won’t support it, but the push for more viscosity when hot has shown a number of interesting choices.
Closing Thoughts:
This is really splitting hairs. Still, once we started getting industry guidance to increase our oil viscosity I elected to look at this again. I’m not personally willing to jump as high as Weddle suggests, and can’t really understand what logic made them leap the rails so hard. Still, I have shown you how to make large jumps in viscosity and still limit loss of cold operation. To whatever degree of viscosity you decide is your cup of tea you’ve got the best in class I found. Use our own use-case, and weigh how far off the ranch you want to get chasing that 5%.
I think I’ve also demonstrated the challenge Poo has in delivering a one size fits all oil. I’ve gone on record many times as saying I think they’ve under specified AGL as we need it, but once you look at the cold weather stuff deeply enough you can appreciate their challenge in delivering an international oil standard. Mind you I’ve shown far better oil selections exist so I’m not giving Poo a lot of credit.
Finally we now have a standard recommendation with literally double the “hot” viscosity of Poo’s factory AGL, we’ve held to tolerable 40C numbers, and improved the D97 pour point. Obviously all through selecting a high VI Group IV oil. As was the last standard, we still gain GL-5 too. I'm really pretty impressed with the 300 Gear old (not the NS version). Shame I missed it last time.
Hope this helps!
-d
Other thread on oils for consideration:
Amsoil AGL Alternative Not Safe?
Since this thread carries on for a few pages I’ve edited this post to include conclusions for those that only want the results. Disclaimers: This is personal opinion. You may reach other conclusions. I no longer consider Mobile or Amsoil to be the lubrication leaders they once were. I will...
www.rzrforums.net
Polaris Demand Drive Fluid Alternatives – A Definitive...
Background: I’m certainly not of the level the BITOG guys are, nor even the TBN guys. However, I’ve done enough research to be confident what follows is authoritative as of this writing. Common Myths Dispelled: ATF is a quality alternative (not). At one time Hilliard documents endorsed...
www.rzrforums.net
Engine Oil Thoughts: What To Use, When, And Why
This thread attempts to discuss the best options for engine oil for our Rzr’s. This as much for the forums benefit as it is for my own. The first post will be reserved for conclusions while the next several will dig in a little. This is hardly a deep dive into tribology. If you really want...
www.rzrforums.net
