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Discussion Starter #321
It was hit or miss. My 2017 XP1K diff was super quiet, this one is not.

I have one of the “Extra HD sealed F A G(forum is editing)” bearings from HD Extreme that I’ve been hanging on to that I think I will try since I’ve got nothing to lose. I’m also going to leave the roll pin out this time. On the XPT the carrier bearing keeps the front prop shaft from moving and knowing that the frames flex it seems like keeping the yoke pinned to the pinion would put undo stress on the pinion. Just theory but again, nothing to lose. The Sandcraft yoke is machined and fits super tight on the pinion so I don’t think wear will be increase at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #322
I think the noise is coming from the ring and pinion. My 2017 had a pretty even wear pattern, this diff has noticeably more wear on the heel of the pinion teeth. Very easy to see the polished area. I don’t know enough about bevel gears to know how to change the wear pattern, attempting to research it some.
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The ring gear looks better than the pinion.
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Some different wear on the part of the ring gear that rides inside the bushing on the housing but I don’t know if that’s normal or not. Almost looks like the ring gear is running at a slight angle in the housing.
665062
 

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18’ RS1, soon stretched, portals, 35’s
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So two days of reading from the beginning just to get here. As others have said, you and joe are two peas in a pod.

About my only contribution to this, since you have most every thing else covered, is you talk about fuel and carrying more. As much as you can build, as much as you carry or want to carry, Im thinking that you could put that hitch to use and build a small trailer. This would give plenty of space for fuel and what ever else.
Now I will hang out and wait for the trailer build thread.


Sent from my iPhone using RZRForums.net
 

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Discussion Starter #324
Been trying to figure out where all the gray sludge that’s always on the front diff drain plug comes come. It’s almost identical in color to the ring gear spacer so I ordered a new one just to compare and see if the used one was worn. Both mic at .050, so apparently whatever they are made from is a durable material.
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A few weeks ago I cut the yoke off my old prop shaft, faced it in the lathe, made an aluminum spacer to keep the yoke & socket centered and then welded a socket to it so I could spin the diff on my table with my 18v impact and try to replicate the noise. I had bought some shim packs so I was hoping it would be noisy and I could play around with shimming the pinion gear but it was fairly quiet on the bench. I think it’s only loud when the prop shaft has leverage on the pinion gear. It was a good idea in my head but proved to be a failed experiment.
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Discussion Starter #325
Also want to thank @Just call me Lou. He mailed me oem RS1 primary & secondary springs and didn’t want anything for them. These forums are awesome. I’m going to pull the Turbo spring out of the primary and try the RS1 spring first. The SLP is 30/240 & the RS1 is listed as 57/223 but the RS1 is definitely softer. Similar in dimensions to the SLP so thinking that might be better for me. I’ll bring the Turbo spring when I tune.

RS1 on left, SLP on right.
665340
 

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I was thinking about something yesterday about the turbo tranny swap and your front diff.

When you swap to the turbo tranny, you have to use turbo axle shafts?

Could you just swap to the RS1 front diff? What axleshafts would be needed using the RS1 diff?
 

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Discussion Starter #327
The front diff does not need to be changed. The XPT prop shaft will bolt right up to your XP diff. Your XP rear axles will swap just fine. The XPT axles are larger but the splined ends into the transmission are the same. So in short, all of your existing axles will work just fine. I only swapped to Rhino 2.0’s since I was stepping up to 33’s and I got a good deal on them.

The big items needed are XPT transmission, XPT clutches & belt, XPT CVT housing and XPT prop shaft (can probably modify XP shaft to work by welding a flange on the end).
 

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Thanks. When I get to it, i will probably take the driveshaft to the shop and have them put a flange on it...then later down the road if needed, i can upgrade the shaft.

I was just thinking with the issues you are having with the front diff, maybe an RS1 diff might be a good option. That will be later down the road for me.

My first 2 goals will be turbo tranny with gear reduction of some sort and a kraftwerks supercharger kit.....then possibly long travel and cage.... unfortunately all big ticket items.
 

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Discussion Starter #329
I would have modified my factory driveline if it weren’t for it being bent and Alaska lacking in good driveline shops.

I wanted an RS1 diff but it came down to the RS1 diff or Sandcraft stabilizer and I chose the stabilizer which I do not regret. I’d rather have bulletproof steering. I can get back to the truck on a blown diff, can’t get out with a broken steering rack.

As for the front diff, I wish I would have just kept my quiet 17 XP diff and put the Sandcraft kit in it. I sold it before I put any time on the XPT diff or I’d reinstall it. Can’t do everything right the first time though haha.
 

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Thanks. When I get to it, i will probably take the driveshaft to the shop and have them put a flange on it...then later down the road if needed, i can upgrade the shaft.

I was just thinking with the issues you are having with the front diff, maybe an RS1 diff might be a good option. That will be later down the road for me.

My first 2 goals will be turbo tranny with gear reduction of some sort and a kraftwerks supercharger kit.....then possibly long travel and cage.... unfortunately all big ticket items.
Wouldn't you be cheaper to trade up to a turbo S and build from there?
 

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Discussion Starter #331
I ended up having to install steering stops to keep my tires off my limit straps. Ran them for awhile and got use to the turning radius but I still had some available clearance to the limit strap. In effort to get some turning radius back I made new steering stops today. The SATV stops are 0.442” wide. I made mine from of a piece of 1/2” UHMW skid plate scrap I had, they are 0.300” wide. It’s only a little over 1/8” difference but every little bit helps when it comes to steering a 4-seater.
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Greased the front wheel bearings again. I keep mine full due to all the water/mud submersion. Only issue is once you fill them and get up to speed for awhile they sling grease around the inside of the knuckle. I put the knuckle in the vise and clamped the bearing halves with 2” fender washers and a bolt. I used my impact on high to spin the bearings at varying speeds for about 5 minutes each, could feel the knuckle get warm and the excess grease came out. I’m hoping that will alleviate some of the future mess. I’ll do the same on the rears.
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Discussion Starter #332 (Edited)
Alright, maybe I’m the only person who was wondering what was inside a Sandcraft steering stabilizer, but in case anyone else is interested, here are the details since I have mine apart to replace the bushings and seals.

Aluminum housing, stainless steel shaft, 2 seals & 2 plastic bushings that are 2-7/16” long.
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The seals have a single lip and just snap into a machined groove. Don’t try to remove them with a seal puller, a tiny flat head screwdriver will pry them right out.
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The bushings are some kind of plastic and press up against a machined lip in the housing.
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Now the reason for replacing the bushings was some play that had developed in the stabilizer. Sandcraft sells a kit for $20(+ S&H) that includes both bushings & seals, so at least they’re cheap to service. This would very easy to do with the stabilizer still mounted to the frame.

Once I got the old bushings out it was very clear why one side had play.
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Also looked like some poor machining grooves on the inside, at least I’m assuming that, I don’t think the stainless shaft would cause it.
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New ones look way better so maybe SCR refined their machining process a little.
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Fairly simple design and it does a fantastic job protecting the steering rack.
 

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Good info as usual ... After you pulled the seals on each end how did you get the bushings out , did they just slide out each end ?
 

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Discussion Starter #334
They take a little effort to knock out, I used a socket extension with a couple hits to knock them out.

I’m working with Garage Products right now to see how much $ they want to make me better ones. His assumption was that they are Delrin since they’re black.
 

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Discussion Starter #335
Prior to tearing down the transmission, I wanted to investigate the gear ratios a little better and confirm exactly what I have. To recap, I'm comparing my old 17 XP4 1k transmission to a 17 XPT2 transmission w/ Ace 325 reduction. When RWB713 did the calculations for me in the spreadsheet, it showed that my gear reduction would be 26.392% in Low, 12.696% in High, 19.526% in Reverse. I sold my 17 XP4 transmission so I'm unable to physically count the shaft rotations.

I put my 17 XPT2 transmission on the bench, marked the output hubs, marked the input shaft and figured out the gear ratios. My actual final gear ratios are as follows...
Low 25.625
High 14.625
Reverse 29.4375

Per the owner's manual I looked up online, 17 XPT2 stock ratios should be...
Low 20.25
High 11.58
Reverse 23.36

We know the Ace 325 gear set installed into an XPT2 transmission is a 26% reduction across all 3 gear ranges. My final ratios that I checked on the bench are a 26% difference from what the owner's manual says so I know the owner's manual is correct and there is nothing weird with my transmission. I will be splitting it open tomorrow to count all the gear teeth and make notes for future reference.

According to 2017, 2018 and 2019 XP 1K owner's manuals(all the same), the 2017 XP4 1K final output ratios are...
Low 18.79
High 12.05
Reverse 22.92

If the owner's manual is correct on the XP4 gearing, then instead of 26.392% in Low, 12.696% in High and 19.526% in Reverse, my actual gear reduction would be much lower.

Calculation is XPT2 with Ace 325 final output ratio / XP4 stock final output ratio = reduction %

Low 25.625 / 18.79 = 36.38%
High 14.625 / 12.05 = 21.37%
Reverse 29.4375 / 22.92 = 28.44%

I do not know why my calculated final outputs are so much different from RWB713's numbers. Per Joe in the gear reduction thread, the ratios are taken before the final output, in my case where I'm going from an XP transmission to an XPT transmission I would think the ratio at the actual output hub would be the most important.

If my final gear reduction percentages are in fact what I think they are (36.38% L, 21.37% H, 28.44% R), I would be happy because I've been trying to clutch for less reduction and I could definitely be closer to factory spring rates & flyweights which I think would help. I would also run high range a lot more knowing the reduction was 21.37% instead of only 12.69%.

The only thing I am unable to confirm at this time, is if the ratios in the owner's manual for the XP4 1K are accurate since I already sold my transmission. I would like to think that comparing transmission #1 input shaft to output hub, to transmission #2 input shaft to output hub would be the most accurate.

Am I off base here? Why wouldn't the gear reduction chart show the final output ratios like the owner's manuals spec? Is there something obvious I'm not taking into account?
 

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Wouldn't you be cheaper to trade up to a turbo S and build from there?
For whatever reason, i didn't get notification of these posts.

I wish i would have gotten a turbo s with all that I've learned.

I'm not really into selling to try and buy something else or trying to do a trade in at the dealer. A lot of money would be lost, plus i already have a bunch of money invested...granted a lot of it could be swapped over. I also have too much money into my shocks.

In a perfect world, yes. In a realistic world, i should just keep it as is and enjoy it, but that's not my style. Or just leave it, pay it off and get a turbo s for a second RZR but wife would literally divorce me.

As you have done, i should hopefully be able to sell off items to make it balance out.
If i got a different machine, I'd still be doing upgrades and changes. With the changes i would like on the XP, it will still be way better than stock. It's probably all a waste of money and unnecessary for my use but I've always been one for mods/ changes to stock vehicles.

If i got a turbo s 4, it would have to be the dynamix version and those are close to $10k more than an xp4 1000, plus the losses on mine.

It would be nice to have the wheel travel of a turbo s though...25" compared to 16" front/ 18" rear. A long travel kit only gains a couple inches.

Anyway, I shouldn't clutter your thread with what I should have started with as opposed to what I ended up with 😂.

It is what it is now and this forum has me thinking about things i want to change but probably don't need.
 

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Prior to tearing down the transmission, I wanted to investigate the gear ratios a little better and confirm exactly what I have. To recap, I'm comparing my old 17 XP4 1k transmission to a 17 XPT2 transmission w/ Ace 325 reduction. When RWB713 did the calculations for me in the spreadsheet, it showed that my gear reduction would be 26.392% in Low, 12.696% in High, 19.526% in Reverse. I sold my 17 XP4 transmission so I'm unable to physically count the shaft rotations.

I put my 17 XPT2 transmission on the bench, marked the output hubs, marked the input shaft and figured out the gear ratios. My actual final gear ratios are as follows...
Low 25.625
High 14.625
Reverse 29.4375

Per the owner's manual I looked up online, 17 XPT2 stock ratios should be...
Low 20.25
High 11.58
Reverse 23.36

We know the Ace 325 gear set installed into an XPT2 transmission is a 26% reduction across all 3 gear ranges. My final ratios that I checked on the bench are a 26% difference from what the owner's manual says so I know the owner's manual is correct and there is nothing weird with my transmission. I will be splitting it open tomorrow to count all the gear teeth and make notes for future reference.

According to 2017, 2018 and 2019 XP 1K owner's manuals(all the same), the 2017 XP4 1K final output ratios are...
Low 18.79
High 12.05
Reverse 22.92

If the owner's manual is correct on the XP4 gearing, then instead of 26.392% in Low, 12.696% in High and 19.526% in Reverse, my actual gear reduction would be much lower.

Calculation is XPT2 with Ace 325 final output ratio / XP4 stock final output ratio = reduction %

Low 25.625 / 18.79 = 36.38%
High 14.625 / 12.05 = 21.37%
Reverse 29.4375 / 22.92 = 28.44%

I do not know why my calculated final outputs are so much different from RWB713's numbers. Per Joe in the gear reduction thread, the ratios are taken before the final output, in my case where I'm going from an XP transmission to an XPT transmission I would think the ratio at the actual output hub would be the most important.

If my final gear reduction percentages are in fact what I think they are (36.38% L, 21.37% H, 28.44% R), I would be happy because I've been trying to clutch for less reduction and I could definitely be closer to factory spring rates & flyweights which I think would help. I would also run high range a lot more knowing the reduction was 21.37% instead of only 12.69%.

The only thing I am unable to confirm at this time, is if the ratios in the owner's manual for the XP4 1K are accurate since I already sold my transmission. I would like to think that comparing transmission #1 input shaft to output hub, to transmission #2 input shaft to output hub would be the most accurate.

Am I off base here? Why wouldn't the gear reduction chart show the final output ratios like the owner's manuals spec? Is there something obvious I'm not taking into account?
As Joe would say... you're over thinking it 🤣

I actually had something else to say but i forgot what it was.

Oh, i remember now...
I'm surprised you didn't start out with stock clutching/ springs since you are xp with a turbo tranny. Or maybe something similar to what the xp uses. The only change you have is larger tires, which would just be changes in weights...or maybe I'm missing something.
 

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Oops, I just realized I quoted white lightning but responded in a sense because I thought it was snwmbl 🤣

Either way...
 

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Discussion Starter #339
These are the tooth counts from the 17 XPT2 trans w/ Ace 325 reduction.

1A - 42
1B - 53
2A - 22
2B - 39
2C - 56
3A - 29
3B - 64
4A - 25
4B - 48
5A - 29
5B - 46
6A - 16
6B - 61
7A - 15
7B - 19

Joe put the additional info in the gear reduction chart for me, I was pretty dang close for physically checking it. I can say with 100% certainty that these are my output ratios.

L 25.624 reduction from XP4 36.37%
H 14.652 reduction from XP4 21.59%
R 29.555 reduction from XP4 28.95%
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At some point I’d like to physically confirm the ratios on an XP4 transmission.
 

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Discussion Starter #340 (Edited)
I got the transmission completely tore down. The snorkel gear had a tiny chip out of a tooth and the teeth on the pinion had some sharp burrs from material getting pushed up.
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Pinion with raised burr on teeth from gear wear.
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In an effort to build a better transmission, I called Weddle Industries, was put in touch with Sean and I can’t say enough positive for about this guy for all his help. He said the gear wear is normal and he has seen much worse. He sent me these pics of a cracked snorkel gear and suggested I have mine magnafluxed just to be safe.
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I took the snorkel gear to an aircraft engine rebuild shop where my Dad’s friend works and magnafluxed the gear, happy to report that it checked out fine, no cracks at all.

After speaking with Sean at length, the RZR transmissions have a couple issues that can be fixed. Because the bearing on the back of the snorkel gear just floats in the case, the pinion gear puts tremendous pressure on it and tries to pull it back out of the snorkel tube. I believe this as my bearing at the front of the output shaft was pulled away and had enough pressure on the snap ring I could not remove it. There was a visible (albeit small) gap behind the bearing, I was able to press the bearing further on and the snap ring came right off. (I had already pressed the bearing back in this pic, just posting for visual reference)
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The pinion has its own issues with wanting to push back, even with heavy duty retainers.

So, now the fix. Shim between the snorkel gear and snorkel gear bearing to push the bearing back into the case pocket. The end goal is to shim the bearing enough to end with up with a small amount preload on the bearing when the snorkel tube is threaded in and appropriate back lash is attained. This ensures the snorkel gear assembly is bottomed out in the case and cannot move and backlash will stay consistent. This will be time consuming to get right but a fun project nonetheless.

At the same time, the pinion shaft bearing will also get shimmed out so when the cases are torqued there is .005 preload on the bearing. This keeps the pinion shaft from wanting to push back.

I just finished inspecting the last of the parts tonight and will order everything tomorrow. I had 2 Koyo bearings that felt absolutely perfect, 1 on the input shaft and 1 on the reverse shaft. The rest all had some detectable rough spot or did not roll smoothly. I’m not going to go thru all this work and take any chances so I’m ordering replacement Nachi bearings tomorrow. Also getting all new seals, snap rings, o-rings and thrust washers from Weddle. Picking up shim kits and plastigauge from the bearing shop tomorrow as well.

I will keep posting as I build the transmission. It’s going to be slow for a bit until parts roll in in the next 7-10 days.
 
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