This may not be the answer you want but it sure is a simple answer.

First you have to have the right secondary to be able to tune it. Only a couple year models had the secondary with a helix. The other models, you will have to have that secondary or buy it. FYI, we sell it.

My simple answer is, don't get caught up in making changes to the helix and it making big differences. You really need some equipment to tell the difference because your butt won't tell much.

If helix angles was so important, Polaris would use the same angle on Rangers, RZR's and XP 900.

We made one small change on our custom helix and it works fine for all the vehicles mentioned.

I found reading all the info about helixes was more for the guy who is deciding what angle to use at the factory in the first place nut for us end users. Again, I have seen very little difference in one angle from the other and we are able to graph the RPM on our dyno.

Todd

 

When I tuned snowmobile clutches there was never one helix for all. You defiantly need to know what your doing and have the resources to get it right. By you guys using just one helix for all, that is a happy medium that just works. One should do the testing on there unit to get the most out of it. But you must know what your doing.

 

Todd,
the "other" secondary you are referring to, I am assuming is known as a "rapid reaction" secondary.
If I understand you correctly, you are stating that the rapid reaction doesn't have a helix, thus it is not adjustable, correct?
Is there any disadvantage in using the rapid reaction, other than maybe engine braking?

thanks,

 

Yes in the models that have one, as mentioned most models do not have this.

polaris is great at confusing everyone!!

 

You are smarter than me!! I have never heard it called rapid reaction, we call it the cheap one Polaris switched to.

The cheap one does not have a helix with notch so to get engine braking down low you have to swap to the HD design as we call it with the helix with a EBS notch.

Only a couple vehicles came with it, 08 rzr 800, some 09, HD rangers, I think some 09 rzr S and now the XP 900. Although the XP 900 is splined different so you can't use it.

 

Todd.
What is the main job/purpose of the Helix and its angle? is it more for back/down shifting. or does it also when correct help on up-shift/acceleration?

 

It does both, the roller goes up one side of groove and back on the other side. Also, angles can confuse you too and little difference in most angles available. There is a reason Polaris uses same angle on almost all Ranger lines, it does not make much difference when it is right or close to right. We just like a straight cut instead of the multi-angle Polaris uses so the RPM stays flat instead of dropping some. Not really complicated if you don't let it.

I don't want to get too far off track but if you have the cheap one, you have no low speed engine braking, you have to have the HD version so you can get the removable helix with EBS notch in it to have low speed engine braking so you don't free wheel going down a hill

 

so, the "cheap" , non- HD, rapid reaction secondary will still provide some engine braking, just not as much, correct?

 

No it provides NO low speed engine braking. All have engine braking going so 10 mph and above when you let off the gas because the primary is still engaged.

What we are talking about is say you were on top of a steep hill sitting there, and gave just enough gas to get rolling and started rolling downhill, you would freewheel down unless you hit the gas some, "dangerous" or used your brakes. With the EBS or HD design secondary with helix with a notch it will make your primary engage again and you have engine braking going down the hill without having to give it gas.

 

What is it your trying to do with your clutching?

Blackbart's clutching info if you have not read it yet?

BlackBart has put a lot of time and effort into a series of clutch threads. I will try to keep a list of links on here and keep it up to date so we can keep track of all this valuable information!

Appendix & Baseline Setup: http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/17873-clutching-appendix-baseline-setup.html

Part 0 (Tools): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/17872-clutching-part-0-tools.html

Part 1 (CVT Theory): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/17888-clutching-part-1-cvt-clutching-theory.html

Part 2a (Primary Clutch Overview): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/18077-clutching-part-2a-primary-clutch-overview.html

Part 2b (Primary Spring Overview): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/18078-clutching-part-2b-pressure-spring-overview.html

Part 2c (Primary Flyweight Overview): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/18079-clutching-part-2c-flyweight-overview.html

Part 3a (Secondary Clutch Overview): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/18338-clutching-part-3a-secondary-clutch-overview.html

Part 3b (Secondary Helix & Spring Overview): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...rivetrain/18339-clutching-part-3b-secondary-helix-pressure-spring-overview.html

Part 4 (Clutch Belts): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...ine-drivetrain/18103-clutching-part-4-drive-belts-types-alignment-freeplay.html

Part 5a (Items affecting clutch): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...rain/18672-clutching-part-5a-items-affecting-clutching-styles-weight-tires.html

Part 5b (Items affecting clutch continued): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...tching-part-5b-items-affecting-clutching-temperature-elevation-engine-mods.html

Part 6 (Riding Style Breakout - Show and Tell): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...t/engine-drivetrain/18748-clutching-part-6-riding-style-breakout-show-tell.html

Part 6-I (Sand/Dune Riding All motor mods including Turbo's): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri.../18749-clutching-part-6-i-sand-dune-riding-all-motor-mods-including-turbos.html

Part 6-II (Mudding-Pit Racing): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/18750-clutching-part-6-ii-mudding-pit-racing.html

Part 6-III (Competitive Track Racing): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/18751-clutching-part-6-iii-competitive-track-racing.html

Part 6-IV (Competitive Cross Country/Desert Racing): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...ivetrain/18752-clutching-part-6-iv-competitive-cross-country-desert-racing.html

Part 6-V (All Out Drag Racing including High HP,Turboed,Nitrous,Supercharged,Weber): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...ching-part-6-v-all-out-drag-racing-high-hp-turobed-nitrous-superchgd-weber.html

Part 6-VI (Trail Riding - All types): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/18754-clutching-part-6-vi-trail-riding-all-types.html

Part 6-VII (Rock Crawling and/or Sled Pulling): http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...et/engine-drivetrain/18755-clutching-part-6-vii-rock-crawling-sled-pulling.html

Clutch Assembly & Disassembly Part 1: http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...-drivetrain/18504-part-1-removal-disassembly-re-installation-both-clutches.html

Clutch Assembly & Disassembly Part 2: http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...e-drivetrain/18505-part-2-removal-disassebly-re-installation-both-clutches.html

Clutch Assembly & Disassembly Part 3: http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-dri...e-drivetrain/18506-part-3-removal-disassebly-re-installation-both-clutches.html

How to change a clutch belt VIDEO: http://www.rzrforums.net/engine-drivetrain/21578-how-change-rzr-clutch-belt-video-2009-a.html

:ride:

Sent by my computer using my keyboard and mouse.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, all that info is a great read but please do not use it to determine what to do with your clutching, you will be pretty confused.

It is not that difficult.

If you have done the testing with different helixes like we have and saw little to no difference in real world performance only a RPM change then there is no need in going to deep on it. Again, if it was such a big deal Polaris would not use the same angle on almost all UTVS

Secondly, fly weight is going to be one way period, the weight of the weights need to match your engine or tire mods.

You will not have the ability to change flyweight shape, basically just two companies making weights.

So again, all this is a good read but it will lead you to believe there is a 1000 ways to do this and it is just not.

I am not saying Blackbart does not know what he is talking about, he is waaaay sharper than me I am just saying read it to understand better that is all.

Todd

 

I have seen people talk about "overdrive/underdrive" clutch. care to explain this one.

and here is pic of my stock 2012 clutching W.E. OE weights and springs.

by looking, can you say who made the weights. the kit I got from swingarm1 seems real lose for the big bore/stroked 800 (about 850cc now), the heavier weights he sent (look like EPI weights), think are 68 grams, ill have to remove belt cover to double check that, those weights have much less "heel" on the than the stock weights do. and seems like the engine is just driving the the clutch more or less. I drag race, so I know what it is like when the torque converter is to tight or in this case to loose.

 

Yeah I would say EPI or Polaris, betting on EPI, Swing can answer for sure.

Overdrive is mostly used with turbo and I am going to stay away from this one I think

Underdrive, unaware of it and again going to stay clear of that one I think.

On underdrive, I think you could put a spacer in primary and do that

 

The deal with mine is i have a 1000 cc apex engine in mine with rapid reaction clutch off a 2010 50" rzr. The helix on a 2011 s rapid reaction is looks a little more straight up and down (steeper) i matched them side by side. I was wondering why my clutching doesnt get the rpm up in the middle like it should and wondered if the helix could be affecting this. I have b-shop performance setup and it just isnt working like his. But his has the newer S rapid reaction. I have taken weigt out of primary weights in the yamaha primary that he doesnt. Dont get me wrong it rips and does at least 85 but mid range im not matching his. And if i dont get the rpm to 10600-10800 all the way through it wont pull like it should. By the way b-shop is very good to work with and i love my std length s rzr x. Just wanna dial it in.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

 

First of all: Hunterworks, I enjoy your posts...they seem honest and earnest. If I ever need more parts, I will contact you first! Keep up the good work.

Jenske, Help me get your setup straight in my mind. You are running the Yamaha Apex primary with a rzr secondary?
Those two take different width clutches, which means they have different belt widths. So, did you shim the secondary to accept the wider Apex belt?
What I did was use the apex primary with the adjustable STM secondary. I then adjusted the secondary's sheaves until the belt was 1/8" up past the top of the secondary. I tried this setup for a while and decided to stiffen the secondaries spring a bit. This allowed me to do 30' wheelies from a dead stop on dry pavement with my 30" gorillas. I lost a bit of top end but thats ok...I don't need to go more than 90mph.

 

You are out of my league with all that!! LOL

My guess is still in the weight of the flyweights or where in the flyweight the weight is meaning if you have adjustable weights with three screws in the side then the middle one would need to go lighter

 

BENT i shimmed the secondary with shims i got from b-shop performance in canada. He has done at least 16 of these swaps now im just wondering why mine is different than his i need a lot less weight in primary to get my rpm even near right. The only other thing i can think of is secondary issues or my exhaust is not letting build the power. But i think my exhausy is good cause i have 4 separate 1.5 inch pipes to a 2.5 inch collect the 2 inch pipe to a 2 inch glasspack. Haha i think there is plenty of flow.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

 

A few pics of my rzr and how its setup

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

 

Just from looking at your setup, it looks like your using the apex primary, rzr secondary and the apex belt?
How tight is your belt? Measure the deflection to see if its the correct length.

 

the underdrive/overdrive clutch that most people refer to is a set up with larger primary, larger secondary, and larger belt. the primary has no bearing. the ratio starts lower and ends higher than the stock clutch. A shim is used on the cover so that it fits. Here is an example: MCX-USA Overdrive-Underdrive Clutch

 

the "cheap" "rapid reaction" clutch that has the helix built into the sheave:

the "better" "team roller" clutch that has a replaceable helix:

 

Here is a overdrive rapid reaction sheave with the helix built in:

 

is that a stock one/stock angle groove?

 

Thanks, Tuf-Skin, for posting the pictures of the two different clutch types. Comparing the two, I now have a MUCH better understanding of the differences between the two. By going to the Rapid-Reaction, Polaris was obviously trying to save some manufacturing costs; possibly at the cost of better performance! Thanks again..........

Cheers

 

The deflection is pretty good. This setup works for b-shop but i dont know why it wont work right for me. I think i just need a tighter clutch spring. Do you think my exhaust looks like it will work good.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

 

The exhaust looks perfect! No issues with it at all.
To not clutter the thread any more, pm me exactly what issues you are having and give me as much detail as you can.

 

That's just the thing, it does not kick out with the notch in the helix which makes the primary engage again.

IF it didn't work why make a secondary with notch?

Only two RZRS had the one way bearing it was optional on one of them.

Todd

 

I for one appreciate all your input Todd - please continue sharing. Most of us realize that thinking your on the same page, as everyone else, isn't always the case. I know I have been off the page many times while thinking I was on - :rofl3: However, getting back on the same page, as you have, is the key.
Ken int:

 

Oh no I didn't think that all, I am ALL about getting the right info out and I have been on this for a while and was just confused about it all.

The issue was were planning on selling the whole secondary to get the engine braking and all we would have accomplished is more but still not the area we were shooting for so I am changing directions to the following but in a short reply to this

Complete new secondary with our custom helix and less ebs notch
one way bearing
tools for primary to change it
Optional dalton clutch kit

The tools will not be looked at as a one time use as many know the primary has wearable parts and the tools will be used again.

Bad part is for the end user he will have to spend a bit more to get what we was shooting for with just the EBS secondary.

Again, thanks for your input Highoctane!!

Todd

 

Heck Todd, none of us are perfect!
Personally, I think a thread like this one helps walk us through a learning curve more than a thread where someone sez "It works like this" but doesn't comment further.

All in all...this thread is a good read!

 

And I agree, love this kind of discussion where all invloved didn't get upset and something good came ouf of it.

I can wipe the egg off my face!!! LOL

 

Just looked the 570 up, the 2012 has two way, not sure about 2013 but you can put the two way on there and it has same secondary as xp900 so you could have engine braking on it if you wanted

 

This is all great info but...why could a guy just replace the 2 way bearing with a one way and have engine braking without changing the secondary? Would that not give me engine braking?

 

No because the secondary would open up giving the belt slack then freewheel again, you have to have the notch in the HD design to get it to stop this from happening.

You can do the secondary only to get more lower speed braking but need the one way bearing to get it all the way down.

Todd