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Found out from a source that it should indeed lock up on the bench. Put old armature back in and good to go. Was informed by a very nice gentlemen in private that these things need to be bang on with the armature plate.
What do you mean by "these things need to be bang on with the armature plate"???

I was in frame of mind that if you have the rzr jacked up with all wheels off the ground and send 12volts to the diff, and give slight throttle to engage the front wheels, the front wheels will free spin by spinning them faster than the diff is turning them

Anyway. Glad you got it worked out
 
Hmmm...well, that very nice gentleman might have a good point.

My thoughts are the design is such that the magnetic field generated by the coil, attracts the armature plate, which has tabs that engage the sprague, which has the rollers mounted in it.

So, if you have the diff fully assembled other than the front axles,

And you provide power to the coil,

That creates the magnetic field that slows the rotation of the sprague,

And that allows the rollers in the sprague to become wedged between the inside of the ring gear and the outside of the output hubs,

Which then would turn the front axles providing the machine with AWD.

I guess my question would be, can one spin the pinion gear fast enough to get the ring gear turning fast enough to wedge the sprague rollers between the ring gear and the output hubs? Perhaps so. I haven't actually tried it.

My thoughts up to now, were that the resistance provided through the axles, with the tires on the ground, would create the situation in which the diff would lock up and provide AWD.

Perhaps not, perhaps its the speed of rotation of the prop shaft and the magnetic field of the armature that creates the correct situation for lock up?

That would make sense in that the "transfer case" has the gearing to the rear output shaft and the front output shaft. Thus as long as the rear wheels have traction, the rear output shaft controls, limiting, the speed of the front prop shaft. And thus the front diff will not lock up until the rear wheels lose traction, and the rear output shaft speeds up, which speeds up the front prop shaft, and causes the front diff to lock up.

As soon as the rear wheels regain traction, the rear output shaft regains control of the speed of the front prop shaft, it slows down, and the front diff unlocks.

So that makes me think that its not just the speed of the front prop shaft that causes the front diff to lock, its the instantaneous acceleration of the front prop shaft that creates the situation in which the pinion gear rotation accelerates, the rotation of the ring gear accelerates, and the sprague rollers become wedged between the ring gear and the output hubs.

The locking of the front diff lasts only until the front prop shaft slows, just a bit, and the sprague rollers lose the wedging force that was created by the rapid acceleration of the font prop shaft when the rear output shaft accelerated due to the rear wheels losing traction.

So that leads me to think that if the rear wheels are spinning, and you let up on the gas, the two output shafts slow, and the sprague rollers lose their "wedge" between the ring gear and output hubs.

Would that not mean that if one is in snow or mud, or some other rotten situation in which the rear wheels have traction, lose traction, regain traction, lose traction...etc. The front diff is going to lock and unlock every time the rear wheels have or lose traction.

It would seem to me that the "wedging" of the sprague rollers does not occur 360 degrees around the sprague. Its the row of rollers closest to one of the slots in the interior diameter of the ring gear. I conclude that on the basis that the ring gear is a cast piece, and not a CNC machined piece. Thus the location of the slots is not perfect, but "close enough". When there is power to the coil, and the front prop shaft accelerates, which ever row or rows of rollers become wedged is all that keeps the front diff locked.

Might that be where the "flatness" of the armature plate comes into play? If the armature plate has a warped section, and that warped section happens to be at the location where "lock up" would occur, but instead the magnetic drag on the armature plate, and thus sprague, is not strong enough to slow the rotation of the sprague for the roller to become wedged?

Might then a warped armature plate only cause intermittent failure to lock up the diff?

Remembering that for most situations, the lack of traction at the rear wheels is not but for a few seconds. And thus, if the warped spot is where engagement should occur, and it doesn't...then one suspects the front diff of being "bad". On the other hand, if the warped section is not where engagement should occur, then one would not even be aware of the warped armature place.

WHEW...that put the mechanical engineer's brain through an exercise.

Does what I have written make sense?

Open to comments or suggestions!

Pirate
 
Pirate, it's going to take me a few days to digest your "Reasoning" lol.. but the mechanics behind it seem right to me. When 12volts are sent thru the coil and creates the magnetic field to "stick" the armature plate to it (which is keyed to the sprague)-when that condition exists, then ANY difference in rpm between the prop shaft and the front axles forces the rollers into the cam of the Hilliard resulting in the "forcefull" turning of both front axles.
 
jerrzr,

Well...no, its not a difference ins rpm between the prop shaft and the front axles. That create the locking of the Hilliard diff.

Keep in mind the front axles go into the output hubs. The output hubs are the "inner" half of the wedging the grooves in the ring gear are the "outer" half of the wedge.

I believe that when the prop shaft accelerates, the then accelerates the ring gear, and the ring gear creates the wedging action.

The output hubs have a smooth exterior surface. Just something that provides half of the wedge, regardless of where it is in rotation. Thus the acceleration of the ring gear causes one or more of the grooves to catch the rollers and wedge them against the smooth output hub surface.

With the wedge in place, the output hubs turn, as the rollers are "wedged" against the surface. This then turns the front axles as the interior of the output hubs are splined to match the axles.

Then, I believe, the right output hub, the "male" one on the parts sheet, then ties the two hubs together so that there isn't a possibility of one front axle getting power.

Thoughts?

Pirate
 
X2 on what oldtotegoat means by junk??

The Hilliard is an ingenious design for the front differential to have a true bi directional 4wheel drive system.. It just needs to be made with better quality parts...

Pirate, you makeing some sense so I don't think your brain is junk. Lol

Also, the front diff is geared lower than the rear. It's the service manual that states that it is the rpm difference between the prop shaft and front axles that allow the rollers to jam in the cam when the armature plate puts drag on the sprague
 
Hmmm....that doesn't make sense.

What the front axles are doing has nothing to do with the Hillard diff engaging.

Share with me what page you're looking at in the Service Manual so I can look that up.

Thanks,

Pirate
 
Hmmm...I've spent a little time looking at the other brands of SXS machines...and I like the overall design of the RZR the best. I'm talking 50" machines now,

The artic cat that came out two years ago, didn't impress me as the turning radius is way to large for trails. At the ROTR, turns I could make on Hell's Revenge, they were taking 2 or 3 shots to make.

The Can Am is a good looking machine, I'm sure quite capable...but gads is it heavy!!

And you remember my post on what I carry on the trail...I don't need a heavy machine to start with.

Myself, I haven't had that many problems.

I dusted a Holz Stage III motor, and to save me I still don't know why. But that incident made me start thinking air cleaner maintenance, and since then no problems.

I have experienced the front bearing carrier "rocking" problem. But was able to figure out a fix that cost me nothing. One day I'm sure I'll have to upgrade to the new design, but that will probably be a maintenance issue.

I have had a two shift cables go bad. But that is one item that isn't very well designed. But out on the trail its an easy work around to shift when needed.

I've had a fuel pump go bad, but got 5000 miles out of the original. And the issue did lead me to design the test set up.

So I'm very happy with my RZR 800.

'course it would be really nice if it could learn to clean itself up after a long ride. It would be nice if it could learn load itself in the Toyhauler. But sigh...I'm working on those issues!

About the only real change I would like to see is a locking front differential like the new Wildcat has. But I can't say that I haven't conquered every challenge with the Hilliard differential.

I dunno...

Pirate
 
Hmmm....that doesn't make sense.

What the front axles are doing has nothing to do with the Hillard diff engaging.

Share with me what page you're looking at in the Service Manual so I can look that up.

Thanks,

Pirate
I will when I get home. In the meantime, here is a quote from Martymoe I believe that sums it up pretty good.

"Its a little tough to xplain, but the front end is geared lower than the back, so when the machine is rolling the front gears are spinning slightly faster than the rear gears. When the front end is energized and the rear tires slip it makes the front shaft and connecting gears spin faster than the internal gears in the front gearcase, and they connect. Thats a basic theory, it is a Hilliard style clutch, which uses a roller cage and bearings to engage the system.

it sort of works like a ratchet.. where when the input shaft is turning the wheels can spin faster than the ring gear, it is kind of like a freewheel.
when the speed is matched or when the ring gear is spinning faster than the wheels, these little rollers get pinched between the center hub and the outer ring and it makes the front wheels pull..
there is a method for getting a really good understanding of how it works.
put your rzr on jackstands, with all four wheels off the ground, start it up and put it in gear in fourwheel drive.. you can play with the throttle cable and get the motor to wind up enough to start turning the wheels slowly.. then with a front wheel turning, spin it faster that the driveline is pulling it and it will spin easily.. when you stop spinning it as it slows down the hilliard will catch it and it will be pulling again..

if you've ever played with an automatic transmission, if you know what an overrunning clutch is, that works on the same principal, except the hilliard is bi-directional.. (meaning the rollers will grab in either direction depending on the rotation of the driving hub) "
 
jerrzr,

That makes good sense. "When the front end is energized (the AWD switch on and 12V at the front diff coil) and the rear tires slip it makes the front shaft and connecting gears spin faster" (yes, when the rear wheels spin, the front prop shaft accelerates an pinches the rollers).

Now, "makes the front shaft and connecting gears spin faster than the internal gears in the front gearcase" (something wrong with this statement. the "connecting gears" are the ring and pinion in the front diff. There are no other internal gears.

Last week I diagnosed an AWD problem that turned out to be the plug no the back of the AWD switch. After finding the plug issue by checking, decided to make sure the AWD was indeed working. We raised the rear of the RZR on a floor jack, flipped the AWD switch on, put the RZR in L range and gently pressed the gas...sure enough the RZR started to move forward. Flipped the AWD switch off, hmm..still moved. So decided things might still be locked up inside. So put the trans in N and gave it some gas, AWD switch off, in L and no movement.

So that test of the AWD and front diff works very well. Just remember that before changing from one mode to the other, you need to put the trans in N and give it a bit of gas.

Can't say that I've tried the four wheels in the air test...may have to try that!

Pirate
 
Final Drive page 7.13 in 08 service manual clears it up on how it works.

But I would like to know what is happening when you hear the diff make that horrible "pop!" when you put it under great stress. Is it the rollers and sprague slipping? Or is it the pinion gear jumping gears on the ring gear?
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Wow lots of great insight Pirate. All I can say is that once I put in old armature plate I was able to bench test with voltage applied and the sprague engaged. Having said that I did notice on the Vendors armature plate that I bought, the tabs were substantially longer. So maybe the tabs were not being pulled out of the sprague. Vendor was great refunded my money on the armature plate. Old plate is flat and works so back in the car it goes. I was told that no matter what it should bench test and engage properly. Sure be a pain to put it all back in the RZR to only find out the theory of needing a load is incorrect and you have to take it out again to figure out why its not working.
 
It's the rollers... think about it, if the pinion was to jump you will have a bucket full of pieces. The cases won't expand and the gears don't flex.:)
The last popping I had was the gears jumping. It got worse and worse. I alway thought it was the rollers, but having a tooth drop out every now and again got me to thinking about what was going on with the gears. Or made every pop is a tooth breaking and not jumping.
 
Rick,

You are correct. The way the diff is designed...there is no way for the pinion to jump a tooth...

Now, I suppose that if you had already broken a tooth off the ring gear...but then again, there's almost no room for a broken tooth!

If you're hearing a "horrible pop" when the front diff is engaged, does it happen every time the diff engages? Or just now and then?

If the sprague is OK, I would look carefully at the output hubs.

Is one or the other loose in its fit?

Is the "male" portion of the left one getting loose at the fit into the right output hub?

A few thoughts.

Pirate
 
Rick,

You are correct. The way the diff is designed...there is no way for the pinion to jump a tooth...

Now, I suppose that if you had already broken a tooth off the ring gear...but then again, there's almost no room for a broken tooth!

If you're hearing a "horrible pop" when the front diff is engaged, does it happen every time the diff engages? Or just now and then?

If the sprague is OK, I would look carefully at the output hubs.

Is one or the other loose in its fit?

Is the "male" portion of the left one getting loose at the fit into the right output hub?

A few thoughts.

Pirate
It just got worse and worse until it just wouldn't pull.
http://www.rzrforums.net/rzr-utv-videos/134249-front-diff-making-terrible-noise.html
In this case the ring and pinion gears where wore down and broke. Made me wonder each time my diff previously "popped" was it the gears or rollers
 
"Deja vu all over again" went through all this 4 years ago. I feel some are over thinking all this, The Hillard is actually a rather elegant solution to the 4 wheel drive, underbuilt diffs not withstanding. How many xp 900's have a thread on this issue? I feel the diff on the 800's may be a little weak for some of the tougher users. One thing that has been mentioned that I question is the mention of lower gearing on the front. Every 4x4 I have ever seen is higher geared in the front otherwise the steering would be severely compromised, the front has to pull.
 
"Deja vu all over again" went through all this 4 years ago. I feel some are over thinking all this, The Hillard is actually a rather elegant solution to the 4 wheel drive, underbuilt diffs not withstanding. How many xp 900's have a thread on this issue? I feel the diff on the 800's may be a little weak for some of the tougher users. One thing that has been mentioned that I question is the mention of lower gearing on the front. Every 4x4 I have ever seen is higher geared in the front otherwise the steering would be severely compromised, the front has to pull.
The 800 and 900 diffs have the same internal diff parts and both are weak. That's why I put the 1k diff in my 800.

The front gear ratio is lower than rear in all rzrs.. Not sure but the giving the gear ratio of the 1k, it may be a typo

Remember that the Hillard diff is an over running clutch that only engages when the rear wheel spins which means the front pinion gear has to turn faster to catch up for engagement.. At 3.82:1, that means 3.82 turns of the pinion gear for every 1 turn of the ring gear. So, since the front and rear are different ratio's you are never in 4wheel drive when all wheels are turning at the same rate....These small differences in gear ratios are just determining how quickly the front engages with respect to how much rear wheel spin is required. With the 800 at rear of 3.70 and front of 3.82- it takes more rear wheel spin kick in 4wd than it does for the 900.
Because the 900 and 1k both have a rear ratio of 3.53:1.
 
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