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Discussion Starter #1
I'm in need of a direct replacement higher flow in-tank fuel pump as I've switched to alcohol and maxed out the stock in-tank fuel pump.

I'm not interested in an external fuel tank solution.

If no solution I'll go back to gas.

TIA .. .. :)

:drive1:
 

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I'm in need of a direct replacement higher flow in-tank fuel pump as I've switched to alcohol and maxed out the stock in-tank fuel pump.

I'm not interested in an external fuel tank solution.

If no solution I'll go back to gas.

TIA .. .. :)

:drive1:
Don't know if it will fit but I would think a walbro 465 can be mounted to the stock fuel hat.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Here's where I'm currently at:

Frankly I put the cart before the horse on this issue. I had no issues running 16 PSI of Boost on Pump Gas.

What I should have done is identified the flow rate of the stock fuel pump. I didn't do this. If I would have -- I then would have done a fuel rail pressure test under operating conditions.

I made the switch to alcohol - And as I ran thru a couple of fill-ups and the alcohol content increased -- I was rebuilding the fuel mapping. I could see the injector pulse was getting excessively wide. I've enough injector (110 lb/hr) -- It had to be a restriction or I maxed out the fuel pump.

And at the same time this was happening -- The engine would die. At this time I didn't know if this was related or not -- I've been plagued with ignition issues since day one.

Being I was perfectly happy on Gas and had no issues -- I decided to go back to Gas.

Next trip out I was at about 85% Gas -- And no engine issues although I didn't push the engine as I was rebuilding the fuel map. I also temporarily installed a fuel rail pressure gauge and stuck a camera facing it and made several 10 minute runs while building the new fuel map. I wanted to see exactly what the rail pressure was at various engine loads and RPM.

The stock fuel pump is rated at only 25 lpr. Had I known this in the beginning I wouldn't have made the fuel switch.

At engine idle -- The rail fuel pressure is 4 BAR or 58 PSI.
At 4000 RPM and 14 PSI of Boost the rail pressure drops to 54 PSI.
At 7500 RPM and 16 PSI of Boost the rail pressure drops to 52 PSI.

Here's one of the video's illustrating:


I'm now currently at about 95% Gas -- This should ever so slightly cut down the fuel flow requirement. Looks like I'm right at the edge of the fuel flow of the stock pump.

When I got back from the last run -- Now several days ago as the weather here has been ugly !! I researched the Walbro web site and called and talked to one of their tech's. I outlined my setup. They are fully aware of the fuel system on the RzR. Unfortunately -- They don't offer a drop-in solution.

What he will do for me though is if I were to provide him with detailed pictures of the in-tank fuel pump/assembly he will see if he can come up with a solution.

Walbro offers only 1 E85 compatable in-tank fuel pump. It's a dual chamber pump and flows far to much fuel for our application and the stock regulator.

Walbro offers 3 universal hi-pressure/flow 255 lph in-tank fuel pumps and perhaps hundreds of installation kits. The trick is to select the correct fuel pump and installation kit. And at that -- It is only for Gas.

My original reason for going alcohol was for fuel cost savings. I've now reformulated my Pump Gas and now have a cost of 5.80 a gallon at 103 octane. E85 (105 octane) I had to travel some distance to get at a rate of 4.26 a gallon. Just makes sence to simply run Pump Gas since it's available here around the clock at the bulk plant.

I've not taken the fuel pump assembly out of the tank -- And may not if everything runs smoothly tomorrow when I'm going back out.

Milos --

If you don't mind -- Which Walbro pump did you install and which Installation Kit did you use and did you replace the fuel hose between the regulator and top ring plate -- Just for future reference for me .. .. TIA .. :)

:drive1:
 

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Sparky im on the road and shouldnt be typing so ill keep it short. Rail pressure is opposed by boost pressure. So at 52psi rail and 16 psi boost you have only 36psi injecting psi. Its a 1:1 loss of fuel pressure to boost. This is why we use a rising rate 1:1 regulator. So thats one thing to consider. If your pump is struggling without a rising rate regulator it doesnt stand a chance with a rising rate regulator.
Also thank you for your tuning via map posts. I knew about speed density tuning but didnt think the pcv would be capable. You changed my driveability in a huge positive way. Thank you so much.
 

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Mr.Sparky, I installed the GSS 341 and really don't matter which kit you buy, you need one with the plug, the bottom strainer and piece of submersible fuel line and two clamps.
This all what you need.
Walbro 255LPH HP Fuel Pump w Install Kit 92 00 Civic 94 01 Integra 00 07 S2000 | eBay
You will eliminate the fuel pressure regulator in the tank, but you need to install the rising rate fuel pressure regulator anyway for your application.
Best way to add one will be to use the fuel rail from 900, which have a fuel regulator on the end of the rail and change that for rising rate one. I do have both rail from 900 and 1000 and look like the 900 one will fit on 1000 TB. If you want to to try it I can send you the 900 rail with the rising rate regulator I was using with the turbo . Plus you will need to add fitting to the fuel tank for return line. Easiest way is to use this fitting, just drill the tank with the 1/2 " drill and install the grommet and slide the fitting in. I just did that for the Z1 install in 1000.
Fuel Tank Fitting - 90 degree - 1/4 inch [07-276] - $4.95 : Parts Reloaded, Your Source For Hard To Find Parts!
I here is a picture of the pump installed.
[URL=http://s358.photobucket.com/user/milosusa/media/Z1%20to%201000/IMG_20150101_180430_zps29939f81.jpg.html][/URL]
milos
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks Milos .. .. I've made a note of the parts you've used for future reference. You've saved me from re-inventing the wheel .. .. :)

Thanks for the fuel rail offer -- I'll keep that in mind depending on my outing tomorrow - As I see where I'm at.

Happy New Year !!

:drive1:
 

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We are also using the AEM1000 pump that is rated at 320lph. Fits exactly the same as the pump we sent to Milos.
 

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What is the flow rate on the stock pump?

I see 25 lpr above. Is that 25 lph? That's quite a jump in flow on those aftermarket ones if so. Just doesn't sound right.

Just trying to calculate how much I'm pushing my pump as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
What is the flow rate on the stock pump?

I see 25 lpr above. Is that 25 lph? That's quite a jump in flow on those aftermarket ones if so. Just doesn't sound right.

Just trying to calculate how much I'm pushing my pump as well.
The Service Manual states the flow rate of the fuel pump to be 25 lph. I see my typo above.

Available pump flow rates are 155 lph and 190 lph and 255 lph.

And Milos has posted a picture of how he has converted his fuel pump cartridge to accommodate the new pump -- Thanks Milos .. .. :)

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Hah, I've looked everywhere except the service manual. Thanks Sparky!
Here is the statment, "The pump is rated for a minimum output of
25 liters per hour at 43.5 ± 2 psi and has two nonserviceable
fuel filters."

This is still blowing my mind, if my math is correct.
25 liters/hr = 416 cc/min (25 * 1000cc/l / 60 min/hr)
Divide that in half and you're looking at 208 cc/min per injector.
208cc injectors, or 19.8 lbs/hr injectors are smaller than the stock injectors!

I admit the rating says a minimum rating, but still, you'd think the rating would be slightly above the stock injectors.

Next question, are any of those pumps e85 compatible? Or did you end up giving up on e85? I'm running it now and the power is great :D
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hey Brian --

It's only a matter of time and that stock pump is going to die. I overheated mine on alcohol and it started to disintegrate sending fine copper colored particles into the fuel line. The way the regulator is setup -- It didn't catch any particles. I inspected the wafer fuel filter on it's inlet -- Clean as all the fuel was being used by the injectors so little to no fuel was going thru the regulator.

The pumps listed in this thread are only for gas. For an e85 compatible pump Walbro - AEM and Aeromotive all make compatible pumps. But they will flow more fuel and draw more Amps than the stock fuel circuit was designed for -- So one needs to do a bit of wiring and install a relay.

I'm back to gas. I had to make an out of town trip to source and in the end it really isn't worth it. I have access to clear 92 and I run an additive that kills detonation and this combination works well and is cost effective - And I don't have to go out of my way to get it.

Today I started disassembling the fuel cartridge -- In preparation for a 190 lph pump. On running this pump -- The amperage draw is still within the original fuel circuit of 10 amps - So I won't have to do any re-wiring. Quick pic:



There's a lot of ways one can go -- Modifying the stock cartridge seems to be the easiest as Milos has said and one still retains the float. I'll also run an external adjustable regulator and this time a 10 micron fuel filter all plumbed in -8 and -6 to the rail.

FUN Times .. .. :rofl3:

:drive1:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I had a little time today and I've been curious as to where the copper colored particles came from when I removed the fuel pump assembly from the tank and shook it off and all around the top of the assembly were these microscopic copper colored particles.

The top was clean when I removed it from the tank. The particles came out of the fuel port on top. When the fuel dried the particles turned black -- Like fly spec's.

I've let everything dry for the past few days. In removing both the pump and regulator from the cartridge -- A couple of things became clear to me.

There are 2 fuel filters as stated in the Service Manual. The 1st one is self evident -- The foot filter on the base of the fuel pump. It's rather large and rests on the bottom of the tank. Mine was free of any debris.

2nd fuel filter is at the input to the regulator and is a round wafer filter. When I removed the regulator and saw the wafer filter I didn't see any copper particles/debris. Also everything had dried and I had shook off excess fuel at the time of removal - I believe this played a part in why I saw no particles on the wafer filter.

I questioned why I had particles at the top of the cartridge assembly and why the 2nd fuel filter didn't contain any at the regulator's input.

When I traced out the fuel flow -- It then became crystal clear. Within the cartridge assembly the fuel flow goes thru a sideways "T".

At the base of the fuel pump is the impeller. This draws fuel thru the foot fuel filter and pushes fuel thru the inside of the fuel pump. As the fuel passes the magnets/armature and both brushes at the top -- All components are both cooled and lubricated by the fuel.

As the fuel leaves the pump it travels upward and half way up to the top of the sideways "T" is a 90 degree passageway that goes to the regulator. The pump spins creating both flow and pressure. All fuel bypasses the regulator on it's way to the injectors until the rail pressure reaches 58 PSI. Then the regulator opens and bleed's off the fuel until the rail drops back to 58 PSI.

When the regulator opens bleeding fuel pressure -- This fuel then is strained with the wafer secondary fuel filter and the fuel is sprayed back into the tank. This is the only time this 2nd fuel filter comes into play.

Knowing this now -- And having overheated the stock fuel pump running e85 ....... The brushes dug into the copper armature sending all those little particles straight to the injectors under full Boost -- Regulator stayed shut as the rail was dropping from 58 PSI down to 52 PSI -- Straining to keep up with the fuel demand.

Now -- There is also a wafer fuel filter in each injector. Guess where all those copper particles are now ?? Either trapped by the injector filter or having made it past -- Plugging up the pintle orfaces causing a restricted fuel spray pattern.

Having replaced the fuel pump assembly with a new stock unit to get by for the moment -- And going out yesterday -- I'm not quite satisfied with the performance of the engine. I don't like the way the tune is looking. I've ordered a new set of injectors - I'll install next week and re-evaluate.

I took the pump apart today just out of curiosity as I wanted to see it's makeup. The brushes overheated digging into the armature. The brushes were discolored as both touched the armature. They were also grooved and the copper face of the armature shows wear marks. It's hard for me to fathom fuel rushing past these spinning contact points with voltage passing thru that there isn't an explosion.

Here's a short pic video of the disassembled pump. The last 2 pic's really illustrate the particles.


Morale of the story -- Run alcohol on the stock fuel pump system and it's only a matter of time .. .. :rofl3:

:drive1:
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Thought I'd put a period on my original thread as there might be others who are looking for a new fuel system - In my case a 2014 Boosted 1000.

There are now any number of ways to resolve this issue -- I'll illustrate how I'm resolving this issue and I've gone the Ala Carte route -- More or less.

1st is the fuel rail. Thanks to Mike at Race Proven Motors (RPM) for their billet fuel rail.

I elected to go with a billet fuel pump hanger assembly instead of modifying the stock fuel pump assembly.

Here is a picture of the new fully assembled/truly plug-n-play fuel pump assembly custom built by Speed House Tuning:



In this next picture is the complete new fuel system (Kit) now offered by Speed House Tuning -- I elected to use the RPM rail though.



And for the eagle eye -- Yes there is one incorrect fitting in the above pic -- I used it to hold one component in place. I have the -6 SAE Male Adjustable Union along with one other fitting coming as the Union is very difficult to source but I found one.

Here is what it looks like at the tank - This is on another machine built by Speed House Tuning:



This new fuel system is both Gas and Alcohol compatible and is truly plug-n-play and replaces everything except the fuel tank.

In the end -- One can piece together a new fuel system or one can give a call to Speed House Tuning and they can put together the complete kit - Simply remove the old and install the new.

Edit:

Installed today -- Thought I'd post a few pic's.

Couple pic's of the new fully assembled rail:





At the tank:



Engine shot:



Gotta luv the new no tools fittings -- Sure beats the S/S braid hose I used to use.

Setting the fuel pressure now is a snap !! !!

Fuel pump is absolutely silent !!

Cycled the key 3 times to prime -- Fired immediately.

Hope this is of some benefit for those who might search the Forum in the future for a fuel system solution .. .. .. :)

FUN Times .. .. :rofl3:

:drive1:
 

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I like it. I'm sure I will be looking for something in the future as I play with E85

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 

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Thought I'd put a period on my original thread as there might be others who are looking for a new fuel system - In my case a 2014 Boosted 1000.

There are now any number of ways to resolve this issue -- I'll illustrate how I'm resolving this issue and I've gone the Ala Carte route -- More or less.

1st is the fuel rail. Thanks to Mike at Race Proven Motors (RPM) for their billet fuel rail.

I elected to go with a billet fuel pump hanger assembly instead of modifying the stock fuel pump assembly.

Here is a picture of the new fully assembled/truly plug-n-play fuel pump assembly custom built by Speed House Tuning:



In this next picture is the complete new fuel system (Kit) now offered by Speed House Tuning -- I elected to use the RPM rail though.



And for the eagle eye -- Yes there is one incorrect fitting in the above pic -- I used it to hold one component in place. I have the -6 SAE Male Adjustable Union along with one other fitting coming as the Union is very difficult to source but I found one.

Here is what it looks like at the tank - This is on another machine built by Speed House Tuning:



This new fuel system is both Gas and Alcohol compatible and is truly plug-n-play and replaces everything except the fuel tank.

In the end -- One can piece together a new fuel system or one can give a call to Speed House Tuning and they can put together the complete kit - Simply remove the old and install the new.

Edit:

Installed today -- Thought I'd post a few pic's.

Couple pic's of the new fully assembled rail:





At the tank:



Engine shot:



Gotta luv the new no tools fittings -- Sure beats the S/S braid hose I used to use.

Setting the fuel pressure now is a snap !! !!

Fuel pump is absolutely silent !!

Cycled the key 3 times to prime -- Fired immediately.

Hope this is of some benefit for those who might search the Forum in the future for a fuel system solution .. .. .. :)

FUN Times .. .. :rofl3:

:drive1:
Where you having issues with the SS braided line you were using before? I've got the rail and SS braided line from RPM and now I'm finding from more research that the stock rubber line may be best.
 

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I know it a old thread but...for those that have gone to a bigger pump how much did it (if at all) effect your map? In the process of installing a Walbro 255 with Aeromotive regulator now.
 
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