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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've mentioned this post-to-be a few times so I've gone ahead and shared it.

WARNINGS:
I broke a few vertebrea and have been slow getting to this project. In particular the 170F thermostat makes me nervous until I get mine out and validate I'm right (any day now).

Nor have I been able to talk to BKMN or AA and see if they'll deliver tunes with lower fan speeds. Guess I'll add comments about tuner support later.

There is also question of it this can drop CHT temp enough to justify more timing in a tune. Sadly I'm not instrumented well enough to know. Guess we'll see how it behaves.

I consider this an experiment. On the DIY muffler build I was surprised that throttle response was so significantly improved. Will this have such success or will it show me little? I don't know. The principals are solid, the reseach sound too. But sometimes real life sorta makes a the fool out of idea's. Guess we'll see.

Things I'm confident in:
  1. Reduced EG mixture.
  2. Surfactant lowering CHT.
  3. A turbo timer will be nice.
  4. The Mazda RX-8 thermostat is a direct replacement for 1000 and Turbo engines.
    1. The Mishimoto 170F is even made by the same company that Poo gets there from.

Things I'm not sure about:
  1. Will a surfactant help the aux cooling side too?
  2. Will the added "push" fan block air while riding and end up being a burden (man I wish I could control my factory fan).
  3. Will any tuners support this a offer lower fan enable and ramp up speeds?

Things I'm doing but am not sure of the value of:
  1. Split tanks.
  2. Will a surfactant help the aux cooling side, or does one need nucleic boiling for them to work well?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Project Overview:
Cool Power is a 6 pronged DIY project intended to increase performance for Rzr XP’s, and in particular Turbos. Naturally aspirated (NA) machines can take advantage of some aspects of Cool Power, but with no intercooler and lower heat load (less HP is less BTU) the benefits should be significantly less. Still, many have heat issues and this can address that. Cool Power is driven by the cooling principals from this post:

Cool Power Phases:

  1. Increase the water to antifreeze ratio in both primary and auxiliary cooling systems.
  2. Add a surfactant to both cooling systems.
  3. Replace the engine thermostat with a 170f (10f cooler) thermostat.
  4. Separate the auxiliary expansion tank into its own “split tank” system.
  5. Add an additional manually controlled cooling fan.
  6. Add a turbo cool down time (Jeff’s excellent post), using it to trigger the cooling fan as above.
    1. Engine Turbo Cool Down Timer

Benefits:
Lower CHT
(less knock)
Lower IC temps
Improve Low Speed Cooling / Cool-Down
Increase Power / Decrease Fuel Burn
Decrease Octane Required
36-40% Water
Y​
Y​
Y​
Y​
Y​
Surfactant
Y​
Y​
Y​
Y​
Y​
Lower Temp Stat
Y​
Y​
Y​
Split Tank
Y​
Y​
Y​
Cooling Fan
Y​
Y​
Y​


The Numbers:
  1. 35% EG/water shows
    1. 3.5% flow rate increase (vs 50/50) worth appr 1% efficiency increase.
    2. A 4 % specific heat improvement (.91496/.88077)
  2. Surfactant’s appear to provide (at 35%EG) another 10% increase. (16% x .65)
Figures lie and liars figure, but this looks like a 15% efficiency improvement for both primary and auxillary cooling systems. Meanwhile:
  1. A 170f thermostat doesn’t improve thermal transfer or cooling capacity, but it will reduce CHT by at least 15f, perhaps as much as 30f, helping with knock and or octane.
  2. A split tank implementation is somewhat less easy to predict, but and my own testing suggests most people will gain no more than 10f improvement. Typically less. However, that’s improving IC efficiency, reducing knock, increasing charge density, and increasing time to CAC heat soak.

Cost:
As a DIY project Cool Power should cost in the $300 range.


Caveats and Comments:
  1. This project is not for everybody. In fact, it’s probably not for the majority. Some of this requires some precision (mixing the coolant correctly is vital), and of course not everybody is going to be a “DIY” kind of guy.
    1. I’m going to aim for 38% myself, as I’ll trade off a fraction of a percentage for some safety net.
  2. Who is this for?
    1. Those of us running tunes that are aggressive in timing (AA tunes), know we’re losing power and mileage regularly because our knock sensor kicks in so heavily.
    2. Dune guys/gals will love this.
      1. Guys running on hot days that notice how much power they’ve lose as the day gets hot.
    3. Those that want to improve their cooling “headroom” for times they are slow and hot.
  3. Tuning Needs:
    1. To take real advantage of the lower temp thermostat it would be nice to have lower cooling fan “on” and “off” temperatures. Not vital of course.
    2. If CHT is reduced enough a tune with more timing would deliver more power. However, I believe the increase in knock headroom (less timing reduction) and/or reduced fuel octane are the better path.

Increasing Water to 38% /Adding Surfactant:

The US seems fixated, presumably because of some area’s cold winters, on 50/50 antifreeze. Other nations are well aware of, and use, 33% antifreeze in warmer climates. It’s over the counter available pre-mixed, as an example, all over Australia. For reference, here are some things to know about 30% EG mixtures:
  1. Freeze temperature, the temp at which we don’t want to start our engine below, is 0f.
  2. Burst Point, that temperature at which an engine will be harmed, is -60f.

This is not a place for making a mistake, so Cool Power calls for a corrected 38% solution. All the EG antifreezes I’ve seen are at 94% EG concentration (add-packs and water are the rest). The mixture:
  1. 7 quarts of RO or distilled water.
  2. 5 quarts G-05 Coolant (concentrate, not pre-mix).
  3. 16 oz Rislone Hyper-Cool.

This delivers 12.5 quarts of coolant @ 38%EG (one should test this with a coolant refractor to be sure. Mine was $20 on Amazon).

Lower Temp Thermostat:

Ideally you changed this while you were changing the coolant 😊 I’ve done a stupid amount of research on this and the bottom line is this: Our engines are using the Mazda RX-8 thermostat. This is not made as a standard at anything other than 180f, but there are two sources of RX-8 thermostats made by the performance world.
  1. Mishimoto’s: They won’t tell you, but it’s actually made by Nippon, the OEM of most Japanese engine thermostats.
  2. MazMart – Remedy: They hand modify unit’s, and I’ve not had one in my hands yet. However, I suspect these are more reliable than the Mishimoto. YMMV. Having not seen one in person I can’t swear it fits our use exactly!
Look this is important: Folks have been looking for an alternative to the stupid expensive 180f Poo thermostat for years and years. This has taken a silly amount of hours to reverse engineer and I’m pretty sure this is right. However, suitability for use is on you! (you might want to wait until I get mine in too!)


Split Tank Build:

I picked up a 1.25 qt tank from eBay (amazon was out) for $40 and had it narrowed by ¾” by a local welder for $20. Same guy I had do my muffler welding. From there its all fittings. They are on Amazon often too. Well made too! Here is somebody reselling it at a 200% profit. At least you can see it this way:

Canton Racing® 80-200 - Aluminum Coolant Expansion Tank with Filler

Bottom thread:
  1. ½” NPT to ¾” barb, 90 degree, aluminum or plastic. (Mcmaster Carr 5218K386)
  2. Side thread (use a 90 degree) is 3/8” NPT to 1/4” barb (5218K365)
  3. 6’ of ¾” heater hose= #5023 @ autozone
  4. ¼” heater hose @NBH-H148 Napa $1.0 / foot.
  5. ¾” at Napa I NBH-H152, but it’s $2.30.
  6. Adapters: Keep aluminum galvanic corrosion in mind when sourcing tank-hose plugs.
Here is that project in more detail:


Cooling Fans:
TBD. Preliminary design calls for an 6” IP 67 rated cooling fan front mounted as “push” from the front. I’m inclined to trigger the fan “on” with Jeff’s turbo timer via the LED feed.
Noctua NF F12 Industrial PPC 120x120x25mm 2000 RPM PWM Fan IP67 Rated

Misc:
For those of us running Poo intercoolers with the “old” base gasket, Poo has increased that size. Most believe this is to reduce vibration and protect from intercooler failure. This should be upgraded during this project.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
I can now confirm the Mishmoto 170f thermostat for the Mazda RX-8 is not only a direct replacement, but they are made by the same company. The are indentical save for temperature and the presence in the Mazda of a jiggle pin to help prevent coolant air bubbles.

Huzza!

BTW, changing the intercooler gasket? Childs play. Changing the thermostat? Sux. I'd like to beat the Poo engineer that came up with that packaging plan.
 

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Probably better off plumbing an additional cooler on the coolant bypass hose. It seems the XP Turbo runs in bypass a lot more than you think.

High speed runs (55+) I'm at 178-185. It will pull down to 172-174 at 70+ continuous.
Trail Rides 187-192
Slow Speed Rock Crawl, steep incline, high altitude I'll see 200-204. Once crested at the top it'll pull down to 190-192 fairly quickly. I don't see those temps in Moab or Sand Hollow rock crawling, definitely an altitude thing in Colorado for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Howdy Bullitt.

It may well, I've no flow data. What I saw when I did extended runs showed only a 20f water temp increase over ambient in the aux tank. I can't imagine getting much below 10f delta, so I don't expect anything dramatic. But I've been wrong lots of times, so who knows.

One possibility that I'll look into sooner or later: I wonder if these expansion tanks looks like it's in parallel with the radiator. If it was it would certainlly have a reasonable coolant flow.


All:
Just an FYI: I'd planned on flushing out the Dexcool and replacing it with G-05. Not gonna happen. These things engineers with any thought to reasonable coolant maintenance, and the hassle in getting these flushed there (isn't a damn drain plug on anything) combines with the guessing game I'd have in trying to estimate how much plain water is left in the system makes me say "screw it" and replace it again with more Dexcool in the mixture ratio I'm looking for.

Crud. I hate compromises.
 

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Howdy Bullitt.

It may well, I've no flow data. What I saw when I did extended runs showed only a 20f water temp increase over ambient in the aux tank. I can't imagine getting much below 10f delta, so I don't expect anything dramatic. But I've been wrong lots of times, so who knows.

One possibility that I'll look into sooner or later: I wonder if these expansion tanks looks like it's in parallel with the radiator. If it was it would certainlly have a reasonable coolant flow.
I was referencing the bypass off the thermostat. A lot of coolant moves thru those hoses at all times. I was throwing out the idea of running an inline cooler on that bypass hose. From my drag racing days we would restrict and/or block off the bypass on Ford FE engines(390,427,428) to make everything go thru the radiator. That would be another idea. With a 180f t-stat that doesn't fully open until 203f, that's a ton of bypass coolant still circulating.

Which makes sense that I'll see 204 briefly on a climb that quickly drops, all that coolant went thru the radiator and not all in bypass. Are there specs for the Mishimoto 170 fully opening sooner? That would send 100% of the coolant to the radiator at a lower temp.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ah, I see. I think we'd agree that cold (below rated opening all coolant flows through bypass, and that at fully open the bypass is blocked such that no goes through the primary coolant system bypass.

Yes, I did boil tests on several generic thermostats, a quadlogic replacement, and the Mishmoto. All were within a degree or two of opening vs rated, and all opened fully in 20-22 degree's. I did notice some responded to temperature change more quickly, but all went fully open to fully closed in roughly 20f.

Said another way the Mishimoto both opens 10f sooner it is also fully open 10f sooner.
 

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Probably better off plumbing an additional cooler on the coolant bypass hose. It seems the XP Turbo runs in bypass a lot more than you think.

High speed runs (55+) I'm at 178-185. It will pull down to 172-174 at 70+ continuous.
Trail Rides 187-192
Slow Speed Rock Crawl, steep incline, high altitude I'll see 200-204. Once crested at the top it'll pull down to 190-192 fairly quickly. I don't see those temps in Moab or Sand Hollow rock crawling, definitely an altitude thing in Colorado for me.
Our numbers are very similar to yours (east Idaho) 6-11k ft.
Even in Moab and St. George.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just an FYI, for my coolant mix I ended up using:

8 qt's of distilled water
5 quarts of DexCool
16 oz of Rislone Hyper Cool

FWIW, I bought two of the best reviewed hydrometers I could find. Neither was accurate for beans.

I then used a refractometer several times to confirm I was getting readings consistent with what Preston published. It was within 1-2f of freeze point at all concentrations I tested. The above shows I'm good to -10f for freeze protection, something in the area of -53f for burst protection.

That's someplace between 35% and 37% EG to water.
 

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Can the G05 be added to a RZR that had the stock coolant just drained, or would it need to be flushed first?

Edit: My RZR is less than a year old. Rather than replacing all the coolant, I'll just buy a refractometer and replace some of the coolant with water. The refractometers say they're measuring freeze point. Is that as in slush point? Not burst point, correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Getting these flushed sux. I dropped the g-05 and used new dexcool. Yes, the refactometer is slush point

no, you can’t mix them
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I dislike the stuff, bit thats whats in them stock
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
They must have. I got no idea what that is. Ask Polaris for a part number for more and I’ll see what I can figure ojt
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well hell. Thanks Poo.

Dexcool usually comes in both yellow and orange. If you look at the SDS for the Poo coolant it includes "Diethylene Glycol" in the correct ratio for Dexcool, and the SDS goes on to call for "Organic Acids". All of which is why I believe it is in fact Dexcool.

BTW, OAT stands for Organic Acic (technology I think), and the only OAT coolant out there is Dexcool.

There are two possibilities:

1) Poo is dying it green to screw with us/keep us over-paying (I just paid $7 a bolt from Poo, so....)

2) They've changed to G-48 (which is a HOAT) and can be green/blue and haven't updated their parts list.

At this point I"m tempted to say the best move for you guys is to use a universal coolant. Something like Prestones "all vehicle" coolant and be done with it.
 

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Well they've certainly made this complicated. I'm not going to change mine though, I'm just going to remove 3 qts and replace it with water to get me to a 38/62 ratio.
 
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