Just throwing out some numbers,If the weight your machine puts on the front shocks is 400 lbs,that compresses the spring 1"...In order for that spring to compress more, thus changing the rate,there must be more weight put on the spring...If the shock is not at full extension, which it shouldn't be,then adding pre-load does not add more weight to the machine, so it can't compress the spring more...The only thing it will do is cause the shock shaft to be extended the same amount,thus raising the ride height but doesn't do anything to the length of the spring or the spring rate...

You have some interesting theories and I am interested to see what replies you get...

Wouldn't G-force in effect add weight to the machine?

I thought that adding preload was one way to help prevent bottoming out, like when you come down to the bottom of a hill too fast and the G-force makes the machine bottom out. = right or wrong?

Thanks

 

I my be totally off base but I think with the progressive wound springs when you add preload your loading the weaker part of the spring first leaving the heavier windings to raise the rate.
On flat, level ride you would lose some of the cushyness, but off a jump some of the lower rate of the spring should return beening that your suspension is at full droup.

Help Mister Wizard!!! (Steve)

 

HEy, i do not know the dynamics behind springs. All i can add is watching Mike in his stock red rzr with stock shocks and progessive springs, I was amazed. I had ridden with him before and he could not keep up with the after market people, now he is in the thick of it and the springs really changed his ride, no bottoming and really soaked up the whoops and bumps on the trail, plus better ride height without having to have his preload cranked up as he had before.

 

since you asked....and I am no expert...but i did your test at the dunes..

adding preload to the fox DOES shorten the spring, and it does not change the rate..

on a progressive spring that is built from a tapered wire the rate will change as it is compressed..

 

on a lineier spring adding pre load wont increase spring press but the way a progressive spring is made adding preload will increase it its all in how a spring is made what hapens with one type wont happen with anotheir thats why you set up lineiar ,progresive and mutiple springs differant.. a progresive spring...(like our clutch springs ) are rated at a pounds at such and such inches...then if compressed will measur such and such at bla bla bla l and thats why the clutch springs are rated at two measurments also a lineir spring has 1. no mater what its at...not hard to understand.

 

It's my understanding that a progressive-rate spring is linear until the coils start to bind. This is intentional and not harmful. The "soft" end of the spring is the end where the coils are close together and if the rate range is correctly selected it will just begin to bind AT ride height. As the shock & spring are further squeezed, more coils touch--cancelling them out, thus increasing the rate.

Adding preload does raise your ride height and shouldn't normally increase your rate when standing still, but every inch of further compression brings more coils together, increasing rate. If preload is set too low you will run out of compression travel before the spring is at its highest rate (most "bound up") so if you look at it this way preload does change rate by affecting shock/spring travel.

I hope I have this right...always open to further education. opcorn:

 

You are exactly right...It increases the rate towards the end of the travel...It allows the spring to be compressed more just before coil binding,which MIGHT change your rate the last 1/2" of travel...
Contrary to one's test at the dunes,the only way the spring would be shortened by adding pre load is one of 2 ways...Either you measured it with the wheels off the ground,in which your shocks were fully extended, or they are at full extension with the machines weight on it, which is a bad thing....Weight is the ONLY thing that will change the length of the spring at ride height,and if you aren't adding more weight, the spring isn't gonna get shorter...
Look at it like this....Set a spring on the ground that compresses 1" for every 100lbs set on it...Now set 100lbs on the spring,and what happens...It compresses 1"....Now take a 2" block and put between the weight and the spring...What happens?Does the spring compress more? Of course not...The weight is just 2" taller with no other changes....In theory,this is all that happens when preload is added...It's just a spacer between the support spring and the weight....Once again in common sense the ONLY way to compress a spring more when there is still free shaft movement in a shock is to put additional weight on it...
Hoodlum

 

Just throwing out some numbers,If the weight your machine puts on the front shocks is 400 lbs,that compresses the spring 1"...In order for that spring to compress more, thus changing the rate,there must be more weight put on the spring...If the shock is not at full extension, which it shouldn't be,then adding pre-load does not add more weight to the machine, so it can't compress the spring more...The only thing it will do is cause the shock shaft to be extended the same amount,thus raising the ride height but doesn't do anything to the length of the spring or the spring rate...

You have some interesting theories and I am interested to see what replies you get...

Wouldn't G-force in effect add weight to the machine?

I thought that adding preload was one way to help prevent bottoming out, like when you come down to the bottom of a hill too fast and the G-force makes the machine bottom out. = right or wrong?

Thanks

Yes it will, but it's not because of spring rate, it's because of additional compression travel it adds....Example,and again it's just numbers.....If at ride height you had 6" of compression travel left,and the g force at the bottom of the hill requires 61/2" of shaft to absorb the impact,thus bottoming out...You add 1" of pre-load,that now gives you 7" of shaft travel from ride height before the shock bottoms instead of 6",and allows you to go over the same bump or g force without bottoming out, and actually having 1/2" to spare...In this instance, it would increase the rate of the spring from what it was before, but the difference in rate would only take place in the last 1" of travel, because the spring is being compressed 1" farther as the shock bottoms,but through normal riding,the only difference felt would be that your ride has a higher ride height...
Hoodlum

 

I was going off what you said "You will find that with ANY spring,the spring length never changes, only ride height" which is wrong....

also..steve's springs do not have the coils wound like the other progressive springs out there...his do not have coils "bottomed out" from what i remember seeing..

 

If the shock reaches the bump stop before the coils are touching each other then doesn't the spring have some adjustment being left on the table, so you can change your rate by the preload nuts..........

 

only with a progressive wound spring....linear wound remains the same thoughout travel..

 

The spring is (for the most part) wound steel and is defined by its rate. Rate is a measurement of the force required to compress the spring and is expressed in lbs per inch. For instance a spring with a 100 lbs/inch rate will require 100 lbs to compress it one inch. Each subsequent inch of compression would require an additional 100lbs of force. This is referred to as a straight or linear rate spring. The alternative, is a progressive rate spring which allows a single spring to essentially exhibit multiple rates. By utilizing varied spacing spring coils, the initial rate may be 100lbs/inch, but each subsequent inch of movement would require more than an additional 100 pounds, and the third inch would require still more. Progressive-rate springs become stiffer as they are compressed.
The advantage is a spring that is supple enough to soak up small bumps, yet firm enough to handle a big hit.

 

Awww Haa good Thanks Mike!!!

 

Yep Steve's progressive springs are wound different, they look more like a regular wind with even spacing between each wrap

 

Ever notice that on the front shocks of a RZR-S there are two springs? There is a small light weight spring at the top.

 

All I know is when I tighten the spring down...the spring gets shorter, my RZR gets taller and I bottom out WAY less. :ride:

 

I don't know where to start here so I won't. Hoodlum you are so off base and all over the place on most points that you even contridict yourself. I don't have the time or the energy to even begin to straighten this mess out.

Here are some links to site that explain it. Read for yourself. Do your own search. One was even given to me by Hoodlum.

Progressive Rate Coil Springs

Why are Springs Replaced

RPM Net Tech Articles: Understanding Coil Springs - Powered by: AFCO

Pilot Setup - Springs

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_1/#SpringTheory

Spring Works - Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) leaf spring coil spring

 

Thanks for the sites. Steve the issue has already been addressed previously on this thread. You should not have to explain yourself over and over. I know these springs will greatly improve the handling. I am confident that when I get my suspension and order these springs I will not be disappointed. There is a reason why so many people Have nothing but good things to say about steve.

 

except for one guy....what is his motivation for slamming something he hasnt tried on a RZR? something smells fishy..and it aint Steve...opcorn:

 

Spring envy.

 

I think you need A set.For scientific reasons,then you can creat A theseus and report back to us!

 

still don't see how moving the adjuster 5/8" (that's all it's got) directly increases the spring stiffness.

Hmm, i have about 6" of preload on my afco shocks, the entire barrel is threaded!

 

Let's not make this personal OK Mike? Steve & I have spoken on the phone & via PM for a long time & we're cool. I've been wanting progressive rate springs to be made available for at least a year so I don't need to be lectured to about advantages or how progressive works. All I'm doing is asking a simple basic question.

 

i dont know...i just used those numbers as an example...not sure what his springs are exactly....but if the stockers are 200 linear....why does my car squat 2"-3".....i think he can make the springs change for every inch of spring compression...

 

wow.......

im speachless......now that doesnt happen often...have fun guys im staying out of this one......

 

Its pretty simple, Increase preload on a progressive spring not only does it increase the same rate as a linear spring. But as you load the spring you will also get into the stiffer part of the spring so it not only changes the preload but the rate of the spring also. Basically it takes more weight to move the spring the same distance as you increase preload.

 

You guys are missing the WHOLE point,and no, I am by no means slamming Steve or anything he is selling....I know EXACTLY how progressive rate springs work, as well as I know how linear springs work....I don't need that explained to me...I think it's great that he is bringing something to the market that gives a better ride than stock without having to buy new shocks...I just disagree with the fact that he states adding pre load changes the spring rate...How many of you guys that are set on me being so wrong went out and tried the experiment I asked you to do?
Here's another scenario that backs my point if you care to try....Set the pre load to the lowest setting and measure the spring length...Have someone set on the front bumper to compress the suspension, and measure the spring....Now jack the pre load all the way up, put the same person/weight on the bumper and measure the spring again...The spring will be compressed the same amount as with 0 pre load...If the rate was changed by adding pre load,then it would take more weight to compress the spring the same amount as with 0 pre load....
I understand as I stated before, and no i'm not contradicting myself, that it will minorly change the rate at the lower end of the shock travel, but it will be so minimal,you will never feel it...The reason I am trying to make this point is not to slam Steve or his springs, but if I was a buyer that didn't know any better,I could easily take his posts that I could easily and noticeably make my ride softer/stiffer just by jacking up my pre load, and I am just trying to make you understand that it just ain't gonna happen....Not saying the springs won't be a big improvement over stock,just saying you got what you got...If they are too stiff for your riding style, then there's nothing you can do about it except get more springs, and if they are too soft,well,same thing...You got what you got...
I know from experience that what works in the sand doesn't work in the woods and vice versa,so I would make sure of what you were getting before all those $$$$ are spent on springs....Seeing someone run over a bump at 40mph doesn't mean anything as having someone say it drove and rode incredible...His idea of incredible may not be the same as yours,and once again, especially with a progressive spring, you got what you got....There is no magic adjustment in the pre load knob...
Hoodlum

 

So you think the shock will compress the exact same amount with the same weight regardless of the preload? Thats not right Linear or progressive spring doesn't matter if the springs are to soft increasing the preload will infact stiffen the shock. Sure if they are to stiff with no preload then your screwed. But from my understanding these shocks at the bottom of the spring are pretty close to stock rate so they shouldn't be to stiff..

 

Ok, Mike hit a comment I have (and sorry hoodlim if I'm taking a left turn). One of the benefits of the springs is a softer ride. Now does a softer ride mean that the shock will cycle more with this softer ride? A shock is essentually a machine that resists machinical movement, generating heat. Don't believe this, just go out and touch the valve section of your aftermarket shocks after a hard ride. My theory, stock shocks don't have a heavy duty N2 preload. I feel that the stock shock/progressive spring setup will heat up and render the stock shock ineffective sooner because of this extra cycling for your "smooth" ride. The testers may not experience this with there short tests. These progressive springs would probably be more effective properly installed on aftermarket shocks (like the MT-2) with external resoviors (sp).
John

 

You bring up a good point and you're probably right. The softer rate won't cause more cycles but it will cycle farther, heating/foaming the oil more. But I would much rather have a nice ride & wear the cheap shocks out faster than tolerate a harsh ride & have the shocks last forever.