i am curious if anyone here can tell me first hand about their cv's binding up or not binding up from a 2"-3" lift. i know racertech has the lift that says it wont bind. why is it that this lift would not bind axles where others will? i mean regardless of how it is lifted, if it is three inches then it is three inches, your going to have the same angle on your cv's right? and that is where the problem comes from?? thanks in advance. - justin
does your 2" or 3" lift bind your cv's?
jevans5050
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I'm running the Roktek 3" lift on my machine and haven't had any issues with binding. I measured my clearance before installing..(my machine was one week old and hadn't seen a drop of mud because I didn't want to fight dirt adding goodies)...anyway, clearance before was 9" to the bottom of the skid. After install, it sat at 12"....then I added 26" zillas and turned up the preloads and I sit at 13+. I'll put it this way, I can clear a 2 liter soda bottle.:icon_rockwoot:
I just used the most basic method of checking for bind....jacked it up and spun the wheels at full droop. The Roktek is the Xtreme design and I'm sure there are lifts that are equally as good out there, but speaking for mine, it's a very well built kit and I couldn't be happier.
I just used the most basic method of checking for bind....jacked it up and spun the wheels at full droop. The Roktek is the Xtreme design and I'm sure there are lifts that are equally as good out there, but speaking for mine, it's a very well built kit and I couldn't be happier.
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567 Posts
What if I put 3" Lift with Gorilla axles?I want a true 3" lift with no bind and I plan on buying new axles. The CATVOS 6" lift is too much lift for me.I want a 3" lift with 100% chance of no binding, and I don't care so much about the price. I am going to be using stiffer springs because of what I have heard about stoc springs sagging,aftermarket axles anyway since I will be running a MCX-USA Turbo and 28" or 30" tires, still have not decided for sure on the tires.
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345 Posts
Roktek lift here
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2,509 Posts
I have a racer tech 2" lift just on the front of my S. I love it. no binding. They actually sent me a lift bracket and it didnt work, i guess some of the S's are a little different, so they sent me a new redesigned on, no money out of my pocket. its works great. If you give them a call, they were very good at explaining how some of them cause binding and some don't. here's a before and after pic so you can see the diff. the first pic is no lift and no preload tightening. second pic is 2" lift in front and preload tightened down. its handles awesome and rides smooth.
Go Racer Tech
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Go Racer Tech
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In my experience, binding typically comes when you lift the machine up while forcing suspension down at the same time. The Xtreme/Roktek lift acutally relocates the mounting points for your suspension, thus nearing maintaining your exact angle from the factory. If you can find, or if you still have a stock bike, compare some of the pictures from stock vs. Xtreme/Roktek lifted bikes. You will see very little difference in the axle angle. I am not sure that you can actually get 0 change over stock and still achieve a 3" lift.
On the gorilla axles, I do not believe that changing the axles will affect the binding issue. You will have a MUCH stronger axle over stock, but the stress on the CV's will be about the same.
On the gorilla axles, I do not believe that changing the axles will affect the binding issue. You will have a MUCH stronger axle over stock, but the stress on the CV's will be about the same.
G
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·I have the Roktek 3" lift and Gorilla axles. The gorilla cv boots are bigger than the stock boots and with the lift the boots will rub the rear upper a-arm when the suspension is full extended. As far as joint binding from a lift the gorillas have no problem at all with that.
When it comes to cv binding, one thing that I have noticed is that when you max out the steering until it stops, it is the cv joint that is maxed out and limits you turning radius. If you max out your steering in 4wd and in a bind, you will break a front cv joint every time.
I had a two inch lift on mine and it did seem to put the cv boots very tight but I never had any problems.I did put 1 boot off of the front (the side that clamps to the hub)but I think I hit a stick to do that although it did not tear the boot.Maybe that the lift had something to do with that because they were pulled so tight.
I used a highlifter kit
I used a highlifter kit
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4,651 Posts
I think some of the issues with CVs binding is the difference in springs. Everyone knows that the stock springs are very inconsistent.. Once they get a few miles on them some sit low even with full preload while others keep stock ground clearance. I've got a rubberdown lift and with AFCO shocks and progressive springs I have zero binding issues.. But when I had my stock springs and shocks with the preload set at 3 clicks I would have a little bit of binding at fool droop. This only happend when the front end would come off the ground while moving. Not really with just the wheels off the ground like sitting on a jack. I also had 13 1/2" ground clearance though lol. Which from talking with others thats alot for stock springs and shocks even with a 2" lift.. The only other thing I could think of that might cause it on some and not others is the weight of their tires and rims.. If somone is running 29" wheels on larger aftermarket rims then when their front end comes off the ground they have much more weight pulling down on their suspension. That extra weight could make the difference.
I have to agree with the CV angle though.. If the bottom of your skid sits at 9" and you lift it to 11" with out adding larger tires or longer A-Arms the CV angle is going to change.. Its that simple.
I have to agree with the CV angle though.. If the bottom of your skid sits at 9" and you lift it to 11" with out adding larger tires or longer A-Arms the CV angle is going to change.. Its that simple.
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601 Posts
I've been saying that forever, yet some people claim they can actually add ground clearance without changing the angle of the CV joints, simply put, NOT POSSIBLE, if the center of the machine goes up, the a-arms and axles have to sit at a steeper angle. If you replace your roof trusses on your house with taller ones, then the angle of the trusses must have increased right??? YUP!
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232 Posts
My apologies to Rubberdown. It is not the CVs it is the end of the tie rod that is binding at full droop on my RZR with the wheels straight ahead. Noticed it while I had it up getting ready for the Super ATV +5 today. A spacer under the tie rod end would probably do it but I did not explore it because I'm going to the +5 anyway.
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601 Posts
Hey Don, nothing I said was directed to you or anyone in particular, it has just been said several times that a certain brand of lift kit achieves 2" or just a hair under 2" and it is claimed that they dont change the angles on the axles with their lift, I just dont think thats physically possible and just had to agree with 8ball's comments, thats what I have always been saying but others feel differently, thats all, to me its just common physics I guess. 
Here's my take on the CV angles not changing with lift.Hey Don, nothing I said was directed to you or anyone in particular, it has just been said several times that a certain brand of lift kit achieves 2" or just a hair under 2" and it is claimed that they dont change the angles on the axles with their lift, I just dont think thats physically possible and just had to agree with 8ball's comments, thats what I have always been saying but others feel differently, thats all, to me its just common physics I guess.
On the lifts that move the upper shock mount outward to gain lift the MAXIMUM CV angle (at full droop) does not change. The CV angle at ride height does increase unless the diff is lowered the distance equal to lift (which I have yet to see).
What I don't seem to read a lot about is the fact when the upper shock mounts are moved outwards, the overall suspension travel is reduced.
Simply put, the only way to achieve suspension lift without changing CV angles (assuming no diff lowering of course) is to replace the control arms with longer pieces.
Vince
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232 Posts
No offense taken. I was just correcting what I had written earlier. Discussion is good if done right and there is plenty of wrong info out there already.Hey Don, nothing I said was directed to you or anyone in particular, it has just been said several times that a certain brand of lift kit achieves 2" or just a hair under 2" and it is claimed that they dont change the angles on the axles with their lift, I just dont think thats physically possible and just had to agree with 8ball's comments, thats what I have always been saying but others feel differently, thats all, to me its just common physics I guess.
Don
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4,651 Posts
Exactly the more vertical you mount the shocks the less travel your suspension should have. This also wouldn't allow for the suspension to droop as much when lifted off the ground. But Id rather add limit straps if I needed them vs loosing suspension travel..JMOHere's my take on the CV angles not changing with lift.Hey Don, nothing I said was directed to you or anyone in particular, it has just been said several times that a certain brand of lift kit achieves 2" or just a hair under 2" and it is claimed that they dont change the angles on the axles with their lift, I just dont think thats physically possible and just had to agree with 8ball's comments, thats what I have always been saying but others feel differently, thats all, to me its just common physics I guess.
On the lifts that move the upper shock mount outward to gain lift the MAXIMUM CV angle (at full droop) does not change. The CV angle at ride height does increase unless the diff is lowered the distance equal to lift (which I have yet to see).
What I don't seem to read a lot about is the fact when the upper shock mounts are moved outwards, the overall suspension travel is reduced.
Simply put, the only way to achieve suspension lift without changing CV angles (assuming no diff lowering of course) is to replace the control arms with longer pieces.
Vince
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4,019 Posts
This is a topic that has been completely exhausted already... opcorn: If you have the time and want a complete understanding of who knows what in this industry and what's real and what's B.S. click HERE. This is the point where our RACER TECH LIFT KIT came to life. This kit was released just earlier this year and the kit is nearing 500 units in use all over the world now. ZERO issues have gone unaddressed to date. This kit does work and will work for you. This is the ONLY lift kit that has thousands of dollars in R&D invested by one of the only companies that truly has experience and knowledge in the off-road industry, suspension systems as well as the UTV world. We stand behind our products 100% and would like to think that any of our customers would say the same thing.
In short, a couple of you gentlemen are on the right track with your theories, a couple are off. For the sake of discussion, let’s call upper shock mount relocation kits “uppers” and lower shock mount relocation kits “lowers”. By relocating the “upper”, you DO lose (in the RZR’s case) about 3/8" of travel front and rear. IMHO, this loss can easily be offset by the improvements this version of a kit can make in handling alone, not to mention the security you get in knowing your axles will not be drooping any lower than stock. Also, this version, in our kits case, substantially improves the rigidity of this part of the RZR chassis.
Let’s compare the travel loss scenario from both ends. We’ve just addressed the “upper” losses. Now if we compare the “lowers” scenario we’ll see that yes, in this case you are essentially just moving the cycle of your suspensions travel down 2-3”. So yes, your travel is actually a little more if anything (since you’re in effect “laying” the shock geometry over more). Would this be effective? Yes…IF you weren’t putting the CV’s into a bind at full droop like some “lower” kits do. Somebody here said they preferred the travel retention of the “lower” kits and they had just limited the droop w/ limit straps. The fault with this theory is this, since you’ve moved the cycle of the entire suspension down and then limited the droop, you’ve actually reduced travel even more than an “upper” kit does. This is because you can only get (maybe) 1” lower with the droop before full bind. So now you have 1-2” of unusable travel in your system. The “upper” kits have much less reduction than this plus you don’t have to buy limit straps on top of the lift kit cost. I may be biased, but the answer is clear to me here. The “upper” kits have the lesser of two evils regarding the final travel numbers as well as the additional improvements to chassis rigidity and handling improvements.
Some of you are correct in the theory that a 2” lift will have the EXACT same CV angle at ride height whether you have an “upper” kit or a “lower” kit. The difference comes in when you compare what the two versions do when dropping below ride height as laid out above. One controls and limits CV bind, one does not.
I hope this sheds a little light on this ever talked about subject. I’m happy to answer any questions or debate any theories anyone may have. I live and breathe suspension design and can ramble on about it all day long. As a matter of fact, it’s what I do for a living…
opcorn: If you have the time and want a complete understanding of who knows what in this industry and what's real and what's B.S. click HERE. This is the point where our RACER TECH LIFT KIT came to life. This kit was released just earlier this year and the kit is nearing 500 units in use all over the world now. ZERO issues have gone unaddressed to date. This kit does work and will work for you. This is the ONLY lift kit that has thousands of dollars in R&D invested by one of the only companies that truly has experience and knowledge in the off-road industry, suspension systems as well as the UTV world. We stand behind our products 100% and would like to think that any of our customers would say the same thing.In short, a couple of you gentlemen are on the right track with your theories, a couple are off. For the sake of discussion, let’s call upper shock mount relocation kits “uppers” and lower shock mount relocation kits “lowers”. By relocating the “upper”, you DO lose (in the RZR’s case) about 3/8" of travel front and rear. IMHO, this loss can easily be offset by the improvements this version of a kit can make in handling alone, not to mention the security you get in knowing your axles will not be drooping any lower than stock. Also, this version, in our kits case, substantially improves the rigidity of this part of the RZR chassis.
Let’s compare the travel loss scenario from both ends. We’ve just addressed the “upper” losses. Now if we compare the “lowers” scenario we’ll see that yes, in this case you are essentially just moving the cycle of your suspensions travel down 2-3”. So yes, your travel is actually a little more if anything (since you’re in effect “laying” the shock geometry over more). Would this be effective? Yes…IF you weren’t putting the CV’s into a bind at full droop like some “lower” kits do. Somebody here said they preferred the travel retention of the “lower” kits and they had just limited the droop w/ limit straps. The fault with this theory is this, since you’ve moved the cycle of the entire suspension down and then limited the droop, you’ve actually reduced travel even more than an “upper” kit does. This is because you can only get (maybe) 1” lower with the droop before full bind. So now you have 1-2” of unusable travel in your system. The “upper” kits have much less reduction than this plus you don’t have to buy limit straps on top of the lift kit cost. I may be biased, but the answer is clear to me here. The “upper” kits have the lesser of two evils regarding the final travel numbers as well as the additional improvements to chassis rigidity and handling improvements.
Some of you are correct in the theory that a 2” lift will have the EXACT same CV angle at ride height whether you have an “upper” kit or a “lower” kit. The difference comes in when you compare what the two versions do when dropping below ride height as laid out above. One controls and limits CV bind, one does not.
I hope this sheds a little light on this ever talked about subject. I’m happy to answer any questions or debate any theories anyone may have. I live and breathe suspension design and can ramble on about it all day long. As a matter of fact, it’s what I do for a living…
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601 Posts
LOL, must be my mistake, I never knew that you, or let me rephrase that, 1 person can know EVERYTHING
As for me and my experience, I may not be making suspension products for trucks or anything like that, and I havent been working on suspension for 20 odd years like you must have, since you already know EVERYTHING, but I have been in the machining trade for 20 years, have been fabbing stuff for just about that long and have about 6 years of practice and learning under my belt with ATV/UTV suspension. Also, I never EVER claimed to know everything unlike someone else (who knows what in this industry and what's real and what's B.S. ) but I do know common physiques, how can you achieve a "LIFT" without increasing axle and a-arm angle, simple, YOU CANT, no steeper axles/a-arms, no TRUE lift gain.
On to your kit, it is a VERY nice lift kit, it does look like a lot of thought went into it, very VERY nice job. Is it for everybody, no, is it for some people, sure it is, and the same with many of the other kits sold. You claim to stand behind your product 100%, and I commend you for that, you should, you must stand behind and believe in your products, thats what a smart business person SHOULD do That said, I stand behind EVERYTHING I make as well and I have several thousand very happy customers to date.
I also must agree with you, this topic has been beaten to death LOL.
Have a nice evening
Oh, and please take note of allthe smiley faces, I am trying to play nice
Mods, maybe its time to lock this before it turns into a stone throwing contest??? Just a thought.
As for me and my experience, I may not be making suspension products for trucks or anything like that, and I havent been working on suspension for 20 odd years like you must have, since you already know EVERYTHING, but I have been in the machining trade for 20 years, have been fabbing stuff for just about that long and have about 6 years of practice and learning under my belt with ATV/UTV suspension. Also, I never EVER claimed to know everything unlike someone else (who knows what in this industry and what's real and what's B.S. ) but I do know common physiques, how can you achieve a "LIFT" without increasing axle and a-arm angle, simple, YOU CANT, no steeper axles/a-arms, no TRUE lift gain.
On to your kit, it is a VERY nice lift kit, it does look like a lot of thought went into it, very VERY nice job. Is it for everybody, no, is it for some people, sure it is, and the same with many of the other kits sold. You claim to stand behind your product 100%, and I commend you for that, you should, you must stand behind and believe in your products, thats what a smart business person SHOULD do That said, I stand behind EVERYTHING I make as well and I have several thousand very happy customers to date.
I also must agree with you, this topic has been beaten to death LOL.
Have a nice evening
Oh, and please take note of allthe smiley faces, I am trying to play nice
Mods, maybe its time to lock this before it turns into a stone throwing contest??? Just a thought.
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4,019 Posts
I by no means have ever claimed to know everything. I also haven't thrown any stones. I don't need to. I don't live in a glass house when it comes to this stuff. I'm sorry, it's just true.
An educated customer is the best customer. I never called you on B.S. You must be confused. This isn't a pissing match, it's business. I'm done.
An educated customer is the best customer. I never called you on B.S. You must be confused. This isn't a pissing match, it's business. I'm done.
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