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Low End Clutch Tuning 101

26K views 20 replies 9 participants last post by  Hunterworks 
#1 ·
Been reading some information on this forum that is in my "opinion" a half of the solution so I am throwing my "opinion" in on this subject.

First off clutching is all centrifugal force pure and simple, a heavier flyweight acts on the movable sheave sooner and faster and yes it does give better acceleration but only for short distance. It also provides more belt grip down low too.

Take a five speed car, if you want to drag race you want to run through the gears fast you can get the best pull but imagine skipping 3rd and 4th gear going straight to 5th and what would happen?

This is what any kind of clutch set up does that advances the clutch at a fast rate on the bottom, no way to slow it down on the top. yes there are different weights out there that you can move the weight around on the flyweight but it has limited affect

The stock clutching in a 1000 rzr is great if you want to drag race but a properly clutched one will catch it very quickly and the stock one will never be able to keep up again.

So if you was a 1000 RZR owner who was interested in rock crawling or low speed riding, you could do the Dalton kit with the optional orange/green primary spring for a sooner engagement and more belt grip and even add more weight in the flyweights than the kit says, keep in mind the set ups are for over all improved performance.

Anything you do in one area is going to have an affect in another. More weight or any kind of weight that advances the belt fast will do great in low speed but suffer at mid to high speed. Why? Too heavy or designed with some physical attribute that makes it advance the belt fast and keeps rpm too low making the engine run in a area that produces less power and it advances the belt too fast then lugging occurs then more belt heat to go along with less than ideal performance mid to high speed.

The simple answer is, it is very hard to have your cake and eat it too. A slow driver, rock crawler or mud guy and duner simply needs two different set ups.

This is a bold statement, but there is NO one set up by anyone that will do both well. If they say it will, well then they are not being truthful.

What we do with the Dalton for the majority of the people is set it up for what most people want, overall improvement of performance and less belt usage. But you can surely set it up for exactly what area you spend your time at but it will have an affect in other areas when you do.

Think about it in terms of centrifugal force.

Think about this. Take a 1/2" nut and tie it on a string and a button and tie it on a string now the object is to get them to swing around flat which one takes the least effort? The heavy one. Now explain to me how you could make the nut fly out quickly then slow down mid way and slowly ease up to flat flying??

Can't do it except by slowing down your arm (decrease in RPM). Using this simply explanation the best you can do to have it better in both is to use a weight on that string that is in between the nut and button. Then if you want less arm speed use the heavy nut, more arm speed use the button.

Hope this makes sense.


Todd
 
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#2 ·
Springs, flyweight profile, where the weight is on the profile, helix all affect this. This has been proven many times on sleds for many years.
Yes proper understanding of CVT is needed, as is the ability to fine tune your springs, weights and helix.

With heelclicker using the proper pieces that fit the puzzle, having your cake and eating it to can be accomplished.
BUT, this is entirely doable with Dalton or any other "clutch kit" as well. You just have to fit the pieces of the puzzle together.

I have personal experince using Heelclickers Drag-n-fly weights on my snowmobiles. With the proper pieces of the puzzle, and the knowledge to tune it, it works extremely well. More pull, from engagement until top rpm and I run out of HP.
But I can also make that same "kit" run like a turd that I can run faster then.
Same goes for any Dalton or any other reasonably well designed weight profile.

I know you are fairly new to CVT, relatively speaking in comparison to sled tuners, but having your cake and eating it too is very possible. And has been done by many.
 
#3 ·
New, just 12 years. I would say a sled tuner is fairly new to UTV CVT tuning relatively as well. UTV is all I know, no sleds in MS!!! LOL

It appears that the Heelclicker will not work on the 2015 1000, the heels are hitting the case and while it does appear to work in the low rpm range the heel makes it shift out too fast all the way up for a heavy UTV that the power to weight ratio is way off compared to a sled. A 300lb machine with 150hp verus a 1500lb machine with 100hp certainly acts way different.

A sled is way different than a UTV, power to weight ratio way different and it handles things way differently.


Hard to compare the two even though they are similar is function.

Also even though there are those like yourself who have the knowledge and ability to do so things that can be helpful in both areas, that case is not the norm.

Most people don't know it and don't want to , they just want a easy to install kit and go.

You can get as technical as you want, I am surely not talking about the super fine points of this, this is more a general overall approach.




Todd
 
#4 ·
Sure power to weight is way different, but the fact is you need to clutch to your target RPM. Whatever that RPM maybe. The weight, springs, helix all can be changed for whatever RPM, weight of machine, elevation, HP output, tire size, track size, etc. On sleds gearing can also be changed which will also affect clutching.

I know nothing about Heelclickers design or how his weights fit in any RZR. Please don't think I am urging buyer to pick one kit over the other. I believe either can be tuned to achieve whatever results the buyer wants.

I agree, most buyers want a "put it in and forget about it" kit. But those buyers are wasting $$ by buying an adjustable set of weights. They will never change them anyway, right?
 
#5 ·
Sure and target RPM is normally what we call shift speed where the engine is making power but when you do that the very bottom could be better with a slightly heavier set up but turn around and not so good for midrange which is what I was explaining in the first post here.

Also take yours if yours is a 2011 800 and I am assuming from your profile, it does not have a removable helix, can't adjust it.


No they are not wasting their money because no two vehicles are the same, this guy has 26 sand tires, this guy has 26" narrow light tires for high speed trails and next guy has super heavy 26 in tires, one fixed weight kit won't cut it, you need to be able to adjust it for you and none is easier than Dalton then if you say go from stock tires to 30" tire you don't have to buy another kit, you adjust it.


Todd
 
#6 ·
I enjoy tuning as much as riding. I just installed a Dalton kit in a buddies 1000. First time digging into RZR clutches but no different then sleds, which I have done for years. I use nothing but dalton components in my snowmobiles. Buddy was not happy with the kit, pulled mid range and top end very well (also has his ecu flashed by benchmark) so he told me he wanted more mid range and top end. Well after a ride yesterday with friends he realized that top end was not real important (northern wi trails) so gonna throw so more weight at it and also have another track to play with in the helix. Dalton has a great kit.
 
#14 ·
Todd, Couple questions I'd like to ask,

Does the optional Orange/Green spring also work in the Dalton Clutch kit designed for the XP1K HLE edition?
How much lower engagement does this spring offer over the spring that comes in the kit?

I'm exactly one of those guys you list when you talk about Low End Clutching, I'm A Mud Enthusiast, that often has to crawl his way out of situations with low rpms and high loads. To be honest the factory 18 clutch configuration has been nothing short of amazing for me when coupled with the 2017+ Gear Reduction Polaris has done on these models. I would not consider even touching the clutch but I will be moving up from the factory29.5 OL2 S/W to a much Taller BKT tire and I want to make sure I calibrate the clutch correctly.

Have you set up similar RZR's for other customers?
 
#8 ·
I am one of those guys that will adjust my clutch, tire pressure and helix depending on where I ride. I know that everybody wants set it and forget it. Polaris clutching is just off and needs adjustment. If you are a weekend warrior that babies your bike stock is ok. Anything after that clutch adjustment is needed. The flip side of the person that babies there bike is when they get in mud or a sand situation where they think they can get out of it and can't, then they blow a belt. The dalton for me works best and the helix ramp angle is gradual enough to save your tale especially if you lack the finesse to feather yourself out of a situation. So I guess what I'm really saying here is most everyone should have a clutch kit.
 
#12 ·
I recently purchased a 16 xp turbo. I must say it has surprising low and mid range. Roughly 75mph top speed at around 7200 to 7400 rpm. It has gibson dual exhaust, and turbo smart bov. I have no idea on clutch or ecu. When in low range it takes quite a bit of throttle to move. Its same in high, but wanting to be easy on throttle,(like turning and going through a tight gate) its nearly impossible to move the rzr easily without it just jumping. Im new to cvt but want to learn.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I also have a question regaurding this clutching.
I am sure many people here are familiar with Adam at Airdam clutch works.
I machines the moveable shieve of a primary clutch so that it has 2 angles rather than 1 continuous angle the entire surface. The second angle that he machines creates lower gearing at lower rpm. It also causes the belt to sit lower between the shieves Once the belt goes over the point of where the machining stops, gearing is again back to stock, and high gear or speed is not affected.
Has anyone done anything like this to a rzr clutch?

http://airdamclutches.com/index.html
 
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#16 ·
I also have a question regaurding this clutching.
I am sure many people here are familiar with Adam at Airdam clutch works.
I machines the moveable shieve of a primary clutch so that it has 2 angles rather than 1 continuous angle the entire surface. The second angle that he machines creates lower gearing at lower rpm. Once the belt goes ove the point of where the machining stops, gearing is again back to stock, and high gear or speed is not affected.
Has anyone done anything like this to a rzr clutch?

Airdam Clutches - For People Who Want to Go Fast!
I hope that Adam's customer service has improved. I know from previous experience with another make it was nearly impossible to get a hold of him. I was reading up not that long ago that he is a very small shop and does the work himself. With that being said he works a lot of referrals from existing customers and keeps pretty busy.

That's the beauty of dealing with a guy like Todd, its not often that someone with experience is willing to get on a public forum and have discussions, let alone the fact you can call him up at the shop and discuss clutching.
 
#17 ·
Todd @ Hunterworks is very personable and knowledgeable. Always willing to help out and discuss any clutch problems.
I have also called and talked with Dalton Industries that has a ead office in Canada.
Very easy to talk to and help also.
 
#18 ·
Agreed. The only clutch modifications I ran last year was Hunterworks Secondary Rollers and MTNTK Blow Hole CVT Blower but for next season I need to step up and try one of these Hunterworks Thick CVT Belt and a Dalton Clutch Kit. Oh can't forget the Primary Clutch Spacer as well.
 
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