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Fluidly Confused

This is a discussion on Fluidly Confused within the Engine and Drivetrain forums, part of the Technical category; I've been sitting here reading different threads, concerning what type fluids to use in my '08 rzr, and find I am more confused now than ...


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  #1  
Old March 27th, 2011, 09:34 AM
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Question Fluidly Confused

I've been sitting here reading different threads, concerning what type fluids to use in my '08 rzr, and find I am more confused now than when I started.
It's Sunday, and I want to change my transmission and differential fluids today. From all the reading I've done, it seems that the only safe fluids to use are Polaris. I was hoping to be able to purchase fluids at Walmart, or Autozone, but now am thinking it might be best to wait until the dealer is open and buy the fluids from them.
Can anyone help clear this confusion up, and reccomend an alternate fluid that I may be able to purchase at Wally World, or Autozone?
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  #2  
Old March 27th, 2011, 09:56 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

Here is what I use, I did some calling to the builder of the Hiliard front drive system in our Rzr's and did some cross referencing. Hilliard recommends Mobil 424 to be used in the front drive, that cross references to Amsoil ATH, which the Travelers Premium is a direct replacement for both. Have used it in my Sportsman 700, and in my wet clutch Suzuki Kingquad for years. No Problems and you can forget the high dollar Polaris marketed fluids.


Front Drive Travelers Premium Universal Transmission/Hydraulic Fluid
Transfer Case Same thing
Transmission Same thing
Rear End 80w90wt Gear Lube
Motor Rotella 15 40 Dino oil
Filter Super Tech 7317

Dino oil and Super Tec Wally World Rotella 15w40 $11 bucks for two gallons Super Tech 7317 are $2.37 each.

Travelers Premium Universal Trans/Hydraulic Fluid at Tractors Supply $14 for Two gallon jug.

I have used the Rotella Synthetic in the blue jug 5w40 for over two hundred thousand miles in Touring Bikes, it used to be 14 bucks a gallon at Wally World, but it went high. I have used the Rotella 15w40 Dino oil in everything for years also, it is compatible with all wet clutches and wet brake systems as well. I have used it in all our Four Wheelers over the years with great success.

Last edited by Kandgo; March 27th, 2011 at 10:30 AM.
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  #3  
Old April 2nd, 2011, 06:09 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

AMSOIL (ATHQT) Should only be used in the front Hub. Its a synthetic hydraulic Fluid. But AMSOIL recommends their Synthetic Multi-vehicle Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATFQT) as it is more closely matched to the Polaris fluid in viscosity.


I would not recommend using that in the Transmission or Transfer case. Those 2 locations require a gear lube and the proper AMSOIL lube is the series 2000 Chaincase Lube TCCBE.

If you are just interested in buying the cheapest lubes you can find at the local discount store then follow the above advice and be happy. But reconsider what you use in the transmission. Having provided lubes for Polaris machines for 10 yrs I know hydraulic/ATF is not to be used int he trans/TC. There is a lot of misinformation out there on fluids to use that's for sure.

If you are interested in acquiring AMSOIL, I can help with that and provide advice on what to use as I have the information from AMSOIL as to what products they sampled and can recommend. As well as filter choices.

Rotella is just a commodity oil made to be price competitive and when you are competing on price, shortcuts are taken to be able to meet a price point. People falsely assume diesel oils are better, not true. In Diesel engines there is substantial exhaust soot contamination that the engine oil must contend with. Diesel oil is designed with much higher levels of detergency and dispersency to fight the soot contamination. Like ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, detergents are a surface active chemistry and compete directly for space on metal surfaces, such as the cam lobe and lifter face. So, in practice, the effective level of Zinc anti-wear is a bit lower than what we expect it to be based solely on chemical analysis. Additionally, the ZDDP that is generally used in diesel formulas is primary ZDDP (which activates at higher engine temperatures) since a diesel engine runs predominantly at operating temperature. In a gasoline engine, we must have both primary and secondary ZDDP (which activates at lower temperatures) since the engine will experience a significant number of cold starts.


ZDDP - This film, consisting of zinc and phosphorus compounds, provides a sacrificial wear surface that protects the base metal of the cam and lifter from wear. ZDDP alters the surface characteristics of bearings and journals to prevent metal to metal contact, and reduces the tendency of critical engine components to scuff or gall under heavy loads.
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Old April 2nd, 2011, 06:45 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

I've given my .02 on this before, and I'll do it again. How many people have an Amsoil or other specialty oil dealer in their town? I am not knocking these brands at all. These companies have spent a fortune developing and marketing very high quality products.
All I can say, is the next time you are at the dealer, buy a sufficient amount of oil for 2 complete changes. That way you will have spare oil for the next change due in August or whenever.
Now, read the Popo shop service manual, and see what is entailed in removing the transmission and transfer case to replace vital parts that failed due to improper lubricant use. I think you will agree, using Polaris oil is the only way to go! If those 4 "gear cases" were able to survive on 80w90 EP gear oil, (or whatever) then that is what they would have used on the assembly line. Look at the cost savings to Popo if they could use $3.00 per qt. oil vs. $6.00 per qt. oil. They are using this high end stuff for a reason guys!
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Old April 2nd, 2011, 07:02 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

appreciate the replies!
I think Steve's comments sound the most reasonable. I always try to save a buck or two where I can, and I don't like being locked into the dealer as my only alternative for fluids, but I suppose a spendy toy deserves spendy fluids.
So, I have decided to visit the dealer.
Watch me leave with a new RZR........lol!
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  #6  
Old April 2nd, 2011, 07:14 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

Quote: Originally Posted by RMR Man View Post
I've given my .02 on this before, and I'll do it again. How many people have an Amsoil or other specialty oil dealer in their town? I am not knocking these brands at all. These companies have spent a fortune developing and marketing very high quality products.
All I can say, is the next time you are at the dealer, buy a sufficient amount of oil for 2 complete changes. That way you will have spare oil for the next change due in August or whenever.
Now, read the Popo shop service manual, and see what is entailed in removing the transmission and transfer case to replace vital parts that failed due to improper lubricant use. I think you will agree, using Polaris oil is the only way to go! If those 4 "gear cases" were able to survive on 80w90 EP gear oil, (or whatever) then that is what they would have used on the assembly line. Look at the cost savings to Popo if they could use $3.00 per qt. oil vs. $6.00 per qt. oil. They are using this high end stuff for a reason guys!
This is the main reason I use Popo fluids. Don't want to knock the research done to match fluids, but the bottom line is if something goes wrong, I have confidence it's not because of the lubricant used....good comments Steve.
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Old April 2nd, 2011, 07:41 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

Polaris and every other oem do not make lubricants, they sell lubricants to make more money. With significant dollars at stake, it's not hard to figure out why the OEM and the dealer want you to think the OEM is the only oil that is safe to use. The OEM's/Dealers want a monopoly on the products you use such as oil and filters and the owners manuals and warranties are written to effect that end.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 06:57 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

Quote: Originally Posted by Z15 View Post
AMSOIL (ATHQT) Should only be used in the front Hub. Its a synthetic hydraulic Fluid. But AMSOIL recommends their Synthetic Multi-vehicle Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATFQT) as it is more closely matched to the Polaris fluid in viscosity.


I would not recommend using that in the Transmission or Transfer case. Those 2 locations require a gear lube and the proper AMSOIL lube is the series 2000 Chaincase Lube TCCBE.

If you are just interested in buying the cheapest lubes you can find at the local discount store then follow the above advice and be happy. But reconsider what you use in the transmission. Having provided lubes for Polaris machines for 10 yrs I know hydraulic/ATF is not to be used int he trans/TC. There is a lot of misinformation out there on fluids to use that's for sure.

If you are interested in acquiring AMSOIL, I can help with that and provide advice on what to use as I have the information from AMSOIL as to what products they sampled and can recommend. As well as filter choices.

Rotella is just a commodity oil made to be price competitive and when you are competing on price, shortcuts are taken to be able to meet a price point. People falsely assume diesel oils are better, not true. In Diesel engines there is substantial exhaust soot contamination that the engine oil must contend with. Diesel oil is designed with much higher levels of detergency and dispersency to fight the soot contamination. Like ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, detergents are a surface active chemistry and compete directly for space on metal surfaces, such as the cam lobe and lifter face. So, in practice, the effective level of Zinc anti-wear is a bit lower than what we expect it to be based solely on chemical analysis. Additionally, the ZDDP that is generally used in diesel formulas is primary ZDDP (which activates at higher engine temperatures) since a diesel engine runs predominantly at operating temperature. In a gasoline engine, we must have both primary and secondary ZDDP (which activates at lower temperatures) since the engine will experience a significant number of cold starts.


ZDDP - This film, consisting of zinc and phosphorus compounds, provides a sacrificial wear surface that protects the base metal of the cam and lifter from wear. ZDDP alters the surface characteristics of bearings and journals to prevent metal to metal contact, and reduces the tendency of critical engine components to scuff or gall under heavy loads.
Pure BS. Amsoil is who I had cross reference the Travlers Premium Trans/Hyadraulic Fluid to what they sell ATH, they then went on to cross reference the Transfer Case and Transmission from their info to the same Mobil 424 which Hiliiard the MFG of the front diff in our machines says to use. Your just another snake oil man. Tell me how come it has worked flawlessly for four years in several Rzrs and Sportsmans??

Oh! as far as the Rotella 15w40, I personaly have used it for for 7yrs in Four Wheelers and 12 yrs and serveral hundred thousand miles in Goldwing Touring Motorcycles, and several smaller motorcycles as well as 600 thousand plus miles in trucks and cars. Again, you are trained by Amsoil to spew, so have at it. LOL
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 08:47 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

Can't anyone disagree with you? For some reason you feel you have to call me names to get your point across. I am not calling you any names.

Use what every you darn well want I could care less but when I see someone recommending something I know is the wrong AMSOIL lube to use, I am going to speak out. Just because something went 7 yrs or what ever is no proof it the right thing to use.

The ATH Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic Transmission is a hydraulic oil for use in farm tractors and other hydrostatic drive machines.

The Transfer case and transmission on the Razor calls for Polaris Premium AGL Synthetic Gearcase Lube which according to the cross reference information I have (in print in front of me) from AMSOIL says the proper lube to use is the Series 2000 Synthetic Chaincase Lube.

The Series 2000 is a GL4 SAE80 gear lube and the ATH is a 5W-30 hydraulic oil. Yes it cross references to the 2 hydraulic lube you mentioned but the trans and transfer case need an extreme pressure gear lubricant which the ATH is not. see below

Quote:
Product: POLARIS AGL GEARCASE LUBRICANT
Synonyms/Other: POLARIS SYNTHETIC AGL LUBRICANT
Item Number(s): 2873602, 2873603, 2873604
MSDS Number: 0126
Product Type: Specialty synthetic gear oil
Preparation/Revision Date: 07/30/2007
Supercedes MSDS Date: 04/12/2005
SECTION 2 COMPOSITION IN
Quote:
Product: POLARIS PREMIUM DEMAND DRIVE HUB FLUID
CAS Registry Number: Mixture
Synonyms: Hub Fluid
Item Number(s): 2871654, 2872277, 8570068
MSDS Number: 0407
Product Type: Hydraulic fluid
Preparation/Revision Date: 07/30/2007
SECTION 2
Quote:
AMSOIL Synthetic Chain Case Oil (TCC) can be used to replace the following ATV and snowmobile OEM fluids:

Polaris
Synthetic Gearcase Lube
#2871280
#2871478
SCL Chaincase Lubricant
#2872951
#2872952
#2873105
#2873106
AGL ATV Gearcase Lubricant
#2873602
#2873603
#2873604
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Last edited by Z15; April 3rd, 2011 at 09:44 AM.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 10:07 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

[quote=Z15;600759]Can't anyone disagree with you? For some reason you feel you have to call me names to get your point across. I am not calling you any names.

Use what every you darn well want I could care less but when I see someone recommending something I know is the wrong AMSOIL lube to use, I am going to speak out. Just because something went 7 yrs or what ever is no proof it the right thing to use.

The ATH Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic Transmission is a hydraulic oil for use in farm tractors and other hydrostatic drive machines.

The Transfer case and transmission on the Razor calls for Polaris Premium AGL Synthetic Gearcase Lube which according to the cross reference information I have (in print in front of me) from AMSOIL says the proper lube to use is the Series 2000 Synthetic Chaincase Lube.

The Series 2000 is a GL4 SAE80 gear lube and the ATH is a 5W-30 hydraulic oil. Yes it cross references to the 2 hydraulic lube you mentioned but the trans and transfer case need an extreme pressure gear lubricant which the ATH is not. see below

Quote:
Product: POLARIS AGL GEARCASE LUBRICANT
Synonyms/Other: POLARIS SYNTHETIC AGL LUBRICANT
Item Number(s): 2873602, 2873603, 2873604
MSDS Number: 0126
Product Type: Specialty synthetic gear oil
Preparation/Revision Date: 07/30/2007
Supercedes MSDS Date: 04/12/2005
SECTION 2 COMPOSITION IN
Quote:
Product: POLARIS PREMIUM DEMAND DRIVE HUB FLUID
CAS Registry Number: Mixture
Synonyms: Hub Fluid
Item Number(s): 2871654, 2872277, 8570068
MSDS Number: 0407
Product Type: Hydraulic fluid
Preparation/Revision Date: 07/30/2007
SECTION 2
Quote:
AMSOIL Synthetic Chain Case Oil (TCC) can be used to replace the following ATV and snowmobile OEM fluids:

Polaris
Synthetic Gearcase Lube
#2871280
#2871478
SCL Chaincase Lubricant
#2872951
#2872952
#2873105
#2873106
AGL ATV Gearcase Lubricant
#2873602
#2873603
#2873604
[/QUOTE


Let me clear it up, as you refer to name calling. Not so much directed to you personaly. But all Amsoil Oil Pushers are Snake Oil Salesmen. Any time one chimes in, it is their product that is sooooooo far superior to any other oil! That is a freaking joke!! Don't take it personal, it is just that Amsoil has gotten a rep just as Am Way did! All talk and no proof! They do all their testing in house and it is just as I stated, SNAKE OIL! And yes you can disagree with me, as I can disagree with you and your Snake Oil! And yes, I will darn well use what I want!
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 10:30 AM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

Quote: Originally Posted by J to the B View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by RMR Man View Post
I've given my .02 on this before, and I'll do it again. How many people have an Amsoil or other specialty oil dealer in their town? I am not knocking these brands at all. These companies have spent a fortune developing and marketing very high quality products.
All I can say, is the next time you are at the dealer, buy a sufficient amount of oil for 2 complete changes. That way you will have spare oil for the next change due in August or whenever.
Now, read the Popo shop service manual, and see what is entailed in removing the transmission and transfer case to replace vital parts that failed due to improper lubricant use. I think you will agree, using Polaris oil is the only way to go! If those 4 "gear cases" were able to survive on 80w90 EP gear oil, (or whatever) then that is what they would have used on the assembly line. Look at the cost savings to Popo if they could use $3.00 per qt. oil vs. $6.00 per qt. oil. They are using this high end stuff for a reason guys!
This is the main reason I use Popo fluids. Don't want to knock the research done to match fluids, but the bottom line is if something goes wrong, I have confidence it's not because of the lubricant used....good comments Steve.
X3
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 08:07 PM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

"The Transfer case and transmission on the Razor calls for Polaris Premium AGL Synthetic Gearcase Lube which according to the cross reference information I have (in print in front of me) from AMSOIL says the proper lube to use is the Series 2000 Synthetic Chaincase Lube.

The Series 2000 is a GL4 SAE80 gear lube and the ATH is a 5W-30 hydraulic oil. Yes it cross references to the 2 hydraulic lube you mentioned but the trans and transfer case need an extreme pressure gear lubricant which the ATH is not. see below"

If I am reading this correctly, he is implying that an 80 weight lube is to be used in the transmission and transfer case. The Polaris AGL is nowhere near 80 weight lube. I purchased some AGL. It is similar to ATF in consistency.

I certainly didn't intend for this thread to become argumentative when I posted it. Having said that, I am still confused.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 08:37 PM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

Guys! We are supposed to be enjoying our RZR's and all of the fun they provide us! This forum shouldn't be used to go head to head with each other on any given topic. Back to the oil situation. I was a mechanic for over 25 years. I was a certified Honda mechanic, as well as a dozen other popular brands of power equipment. I know engines and drive trains. I know that when a manufacturer specified a particular lubricant, they probably did their homework. Why spend hours tossing and turning wondering if another brand of oil will live up to the specifications that Polaris set out! Same with the oil filter. My wmart does not carry the cross referenced filter for the engine. I'd rather give my Popo dealer (a good guy) $10.95 for the correct filter, and install it with confidence.
BTW, pull up the lubrication specs for a Falcon Jet 900. Talk about specifics, with zero lattitude for substitutes!
In short: Don't spend a dollar to save a dime!
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 10:20 PM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

I've read a lot of threads on this forum regarding alternative oils for the RZR. It appears that the indecsion is with the transmission and transfer case.

Synthetic motor oil for the engine (anything from 0-40 to 15-40)

Synthetic gear lube for the rear gear case. (usually 75-90)

Synthetic transmission fluid for the front gear case.

The question is....is it synthetic transmission fluid or gear case oil for the transmission and transfer case?
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 10:39 PM
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Re: Fluidly Confused

The way I see it, I spent $8000 on mine, so I just as well pay the extra for the Polaris oils! I'm sure there are others out there that will work, but it's not like you are dumping the fluids all the time on these things. Not gonna take any chances on mine, just to save a few bucks!
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